E730 | Current Trends To Be Aware Of In Cash and Hybrid Practices With Yves Gege

In this episode of the PT Entrepreneur Podcast, Dr. Danny and Yves Gege dive into a discussion about the current state of the physical therapy profession. They touch on the challenges and opportunities that clinic owners are facing in today's market. One key point discussed is the wage increases and compression in profit margins that clinic owners are experiencing. With high demand for clinicians and low supply, clinic owners are struggling to offset the increased labor costs with immediate price increases, leading to compression in net profit margins. The hosts stress the importance of being financially savvy and making strategic hiring decisions to navigate this challenge.

The discussion also highlights the significance of leadership and financial acumen in running a successful physical therapy practice. Strong leadership and a deep understanding of finance and business operations are crucial for the success of any business. The hosts emphasize the importance of managing and motivating staff, as well as having a clear grasp of cash flow management for data-driven decision-making.

Additionally, the podcast explores opportunities for growth and selling practices in the physical therapy profession. Cash-based practices are becoming more scalable and sellable, with clinics being sold for significant amounts depending on the current interest rate environment. Clinic owners are encouraged to build a larger, more profitable practice to increase potential sale value, but this requires understanding their goals and making sacrifices in the short term.

The episode also delves into the importance of work-life balance and intentionality in business ownership. Maintaining a balance between work and personal life can be challenging, especially when building a successful business. The hosts stress the importance of being intentional with time and relationships, implementing "pattern interrupts" to break routines, and prioritizing quality time with loved ones.

Lastly, the hosts highlight the value of attending industry events for networking and learning opportunities. Connecting with peers in the industry can provide valuable insights and perspectives for driving positive change in one's business and personal life. Overall, the episode provides a comprehensive overview of the current state of the physical therapy profession, emphasizing the importance of leadership, financial acumen, work-life balance, and industry engagement for clinic owners and entrepreneurs.

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, real quick, if you were serious about starting or growing your cash based practice, I want to formally invite you to go to Facebook and join our PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. This is a group of over 6,000 providers all over the country, and it's a pretty amazing place to start to get involved in the conversation.

Hope to see you there soon. Hey, are you a physical therapist looking to leverage your skill set in a way that helps you create time and financial freedom for yourself and your family? If so, you're in the right spot. My name is Danny Matta and over the last 15 years I've done pretty much everything you can in the profession.

I've been a staff PT I've been an active duty military officer physical therapist. I've started my own cash practice. I've sold that cash practice And today my company physical therapy business helped over a thousand clinicians start growing scale their own cash practices So if this sounds like something you want to do listen up because i'm here to help you What's going on?

Dr. Danny here with the pt entrepreneur podcast and today I got Yves Gege with me and we have an opportunity to really have a, uh, a pretty open discussion about the, where the [00:01:00] profession is currently at, uh, kind of the things that we're seeing that are coming down, you know, the, the, the, in the near future that are going to be hurdles, also things that are going to be.

Big opportunities as well. Uh, so really, I think this is more of a kind of what we're seeing with the couple 100 businesses that we have the opportunity to work with. Um, and really, it's, it's interesting to be able to have this sort of 30,000 foot view of these businesses and see what's happening. Um. To and to be able to share that, I hope is helpful because I think it's 1 of those things that, um, you know, as long as you know, maybe what to look for, it's up to you to implement and that's really what we help a lot of people do with with folks within a PT biz really help them implement at a high level with things that we see that are that are coming up and having that number of people is really huge advantage as far as.

It's almost like we can look around corners a little bit easier, uh, than if you're trying to do it by yourself, it's really much, much harder. So, um, you know, before we jump into that though, it's [00:02:00] been, it's been a while, man, you guys are, uh, you know, about to move, you know, back to Charleston. You're in a whole nother, a whole nother state, uh, for, you know, half the year.

So how is, how is Colorado, how was Colorado? I should say, you guys are moving back and, uh, you know, are you excited to move back to Charleston?

Yves: Yeah, uh, everyone's making fun of us because we're moving back to Charleston, literally the worst time of year, which is July and August where it's oppressively hot.

My dad came into town yesterday because actually he's coming into town. He's going to be driving one of the cars back. My wife is going to be driving the other car back and I'm flying over with the kids. Um, but he was telling me, he's like, I went outside, just do a little bit of pruning of bushes. And he was literally, Soaking wet after that.

It was like 10 minutes outside. So, um, yeah, I'm going to miss the weather. I think like, so we're in steamboat Springs, Colorado. It's like a small town, which is really, really cool. Uh, hiking, you know what I mean? Um, the weather's [00:03:00] like 60 degrees. It's actually cold, like in the forties in the morning. So nobody has air conditioning here.

So it's just a totally different, you know, Charleston's flat it's beach. And now we're like, you know, elevation mountains and, um, much cooler. So I'm going to miss it, man. Like everyone here is very outdoorsy, you know, I've done a lot of mountain biking and hiking and, um, kind of realized how much I enjoy that stuff.

Like we talk about it all the time. This idea of, uh, I still love this word nature bathing. It's kind of a weird word, but it makes sense. Um, dude, like my anxiety level and just like my overall mood, like just being able to just go outside and, you know, just see trees and mountains. It's just like. It's beautiful.

Like I sit outside every morning, drink my athletic greens and I stare at the mountains and I'm like, damn it, I'm going to miss this, you know?

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. That sounds awesome. I think that, uh, there's definitely something to be said for, you know, time outside. I mean, the research shows that it's very important.

I mean, you have all these countries that [00:04:00] prescribe that, you know, and have Have nature bathing centers like in Japan. And it's, it is so interesting to really look at, uh, naturally we should be doing more of that and, uh, and even doing that, you know, intentionally yourself, maybe a bit more per day. I think, especially as entrepreneurs, it's so easy for us to get tied to work that we have to do.

I find myself doing this as well. And. It's not like there isn't always going to be more work. Like there's a lot of things that I can do. There's a lot of things that, you know, I'll do in a week and I could always do more and not, not being able to have 20, 30 minutes a day where you can just kind of spend some time outside and whether that's, whether that's exercising outside, going for a walk, whether it's mountain biking, hiking, maybe it's just, you know, going to sit on a bench and enjoying.

A nice day like right now in Atlanta. It's not really enjoyable to be outside. Everyone's walking their dogs first thing in the morning because so hot. Right? So it's [00:05:00] literally like a traffic jam of dogs walking around our neighborhood. Uh, because it's it's so hot. But, you know, once it's, um. Once it's the fall, I mean, it's just one of my favorite times of year where I do spend so much more time, you know, outside, especially here.

It's just, I think it's such a pretty place to see the fall, but, uh, it makes a big difference, man. So I, I totally see that. And, um, you know, it's, it's interesting to be able to experience other places too. I know for a lot of people, they maybe haven't really, um, had a chance to move much. And if you go somewhere for six months, That's a real feel of what that's like, you know, and it's not, it's not just a week.

So that's cool. That's definitely something I think is a, is a pretty unique experience that, uh, you know, you and your family have been able to have.

Yves: Yeah, no, we've enjoyed it. I've never lived anywhere else in my entire life. Like I lived in Charleston my entire life. The only time I ever lived anywhere else was I did one rotation in Columbia, South Carolina.

Yeah. Um, so, uh, it was awesome. It's awesome [00:06:00] just to live somewhere else and experience that. So, um, yeah, you know, I think we'll be back. Um, you know, is, is definitely the mountains are calling my name, so we'll see. We'll see what the future holds.

Danny: Yeah. I don't know what it is about. Mountains are interesting, right?

You look at them and you have this sense of like, I want to go up to that. You know, like you, it's, it's a, it's a deep rooted thing, right? It's a, I don't know what it is about 'em, but it's something that you wanna, you know, you wanna get into and, and, and, uh. You know, conquer or, you know, find yourself in the, in the, in the woods, you know, in that area.

And it is, it is, it is an interesting feeling whenever you look up at something like that, I think it would be the same thing with like city skylines, sort of, it's like man made, uh, mountain ranges, uh, the way we look at it, but anyway, it's good. It's good to have you back. We'll, we'll, we're excited for you guys to be closer to Atlanta.

I know my kids are super excited for your kids to be, um, you know, a bit closer, but, uh, today, I mean, we get some time to kind of catch up on, Uh, the, the, the physical therapy and clinical sort of world and, uh, the trends that we see, [00:07:00] you know, happening within that and, um, you know, since we did this last time, it really had a sort of informal discussion about it's been a while and, It's it's been interesting to watch even this year as some things have changed and we were talking earlier About even some legislation changes that have occurred like in california.

They have the the minimum wage. Uh, you know, um Employment laws that they just put in place that are I think it's actually july I think it's this month that it actually goes into place and it's phase phase is up to where there's going to be a 25 per hour minimum for any One adjacent to, uh, like a healthcare.

So it could be admins could be techs. Uh, and we've had some discussions with people even within our mastermind of like, man, they're going to have to basically maybe redo their business model with taking some of the like lower paid. Positions that, for instance, if you're using a tech in any way, or you have, like, maybe it's like a secondary admin that's part time.

And, uh, they, if you can't justify the minimum amount, you're, you [00:08:00] may have to, like, really, um, I guess, look at your organizational chart, figure out how you're going to make that work. So, you know, there's an interesting trend that I'm seeing, which is basically, easy. I'm seeing wage, uh, increases that are happening and very, very necessary to be honest.

If you look at really life is more expensive. Life has gotten more expensive for everybody over the last, you know, four to five years. We had a lot of, uh, you know, money pumped into the system from, from COVID. Uh, we, we've had to, you know, To deal with a lot of inflation that people feel on a, on a daily basis.

Um, you know, especially with cost of living and food, uh, and gas, just, just things that are, everybody pays for it. Like, I don't know anybody that goes to the grocery store right now and they're like, wow, that a hundred dollars that I would spend maybe like six years ago. It's equivalent to what I just left with.

Uh, when you spend a hundred bucks, like it's noticeable. So for anybody that [00:09:00] is, that is, you know, is, is working, they feel that more, they feel that more because their paycheck is going to be a bit more stable. They, they don't have maybe, uh, uh, the same way that like a business owner does to be able to adjust for some of that based on what they're pricing.

And what we're seeing now is wage increases for staff. Not necessarily the same corresponding ability to do a price point changes in these clinics. So we're starting to see the beginnings of some compression in terms of, uh, net profit. And I think likely what will happen is it'll balance out as you're able to improve price points.

But for the short term, what you're seeing is the demand, uh, for clinicians has gone up. More people are leaving the profession, so the supply has gone down and the base salary and compensation packages that are being put in front of, uh, you know, newer clinicians, uh, you know, with maybe [00:10:00] right out of school or a couple years out of school.

It's definitely higher, way higher than I would say it was even five, 10 years ago, which, you know, again, it's not, I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but as a business owner, where you're seeing that adjustment and maybe you're playing catch up with where your price points are at, or maybe it's to make some hard decisions about your payer mix.

If you're hybrid, like that puts you in a tough spot where you're really going to have to be, uh, efficient with your finances, understand your organizational chart really well, and make intelligent decisions. As far as hiring and scaling is concerned, otherwise you can find yourself in a really tough cash position.

Yves: Yeah. I mean, we will dig this more, but we're realizing that you're just going to have to be better at business. You know what I mean? So for these business owners, you can't really get away with. what you were getting away with before where it's a lower price point or maybe you're not really investing in your skill set like that's no longer it's not going to be possible but it's going to be a lot less likely that you'll be able to to succeed you know a great example is is what i [00:11:00] did it made to move right like even how we've taught how we've taught our members how to pair people like in the beginning I got away with like 30 to 60 days of unpaid internship.

Then I got away with like a really low base salary. That's probably more like an admin would have. And then I kind of gave a kind of a better base salary. Like it was about, I don't know, 41, 000 a year, like very low with bonuses. And I got away with that for a very, very long time made the move cannot get away with that anymore.

No, nor can our people write like the base salary and the stability has gone up, you know, as well as even the top end salary has had to go up as well. And, um, you know, it's just interesting. Yeah, definitely just to see that trend and just say, all right, if I want to hire talent, Which typically you need in a hybrid or cash price.

You need talented people. You're going to have to pay more. And that just keeps, it almost like keeps creeping up. I'm like, all right, when's the end going to be? Um, because yeah, we can only kind of raise our prices so much right now too. We are seeing a little bit of a, you know, you're getting closer to the [00:12:00] 300s and that's, Probably getting, depending on your sales, um, you know, ability is probably kind of the cap for a lot of people.

Um, and we're also seeing people still kind of at 150, which is like, you're not even going to survive there anymore. So it's just like a lot of different factors at play. And just like you said, it's so interesting to get this 30, 000 foot view and be able to, you know, hopefully put these pieces together and just have like brutal honesty too, which I think, you know, about what, what things we need to put in place and what we need to change.

Danny: Yeah, I would say that the people that seem to have the best businesses that we're working with right now, there's a couple of characteristics that I would say are, are similar. Um, the, the number one thing is they're really good leaders, which is, um, it's a hard skill to learn, you know, unless, unless you learned that skill via a structured environment that you were in before, or maybe you learned it through mistakes.

In somebody [00:13:00] else's business, uh, or in sports or the military, you know, somewhere else, if you are, if you're, if you don't have any leadership experience, and then you open your own, your own place, you're going to have to get that experience oftentimes through trial and error of, uh, your, your own practice, which is hard because.

You know, leadership's it's a, it's a challenging thing. It basically is how can you keep people around you motivated, happy, and, and really like wanting to continue to, uh, you know, drive towards the mission of whatever your company is. Right. So, and there's a lot of factors involved with that because.

Human beings are messy. We have our own shit going on and we bring that into, we bring that into work. It's not like you just leave that at home. It does as much as people would like that to be the case that own businesses. It's not, it's not the case. And so you have to become really good at. Dealing with people and you have to be a very good motor bait motivator of people as well [00:14:00] as really, really high emotional intelligence to be able to understand what motivates people, uh, without them maybe directly telling you, cause they may not want to tell you, you know, they, they may tell you something, but that may not be exactly what's going on because it may not be beneficial to them to do so.

Or maybe they don't trust you enough, uh, to, to do so. So, you know, the people that are the best leaders, they have the best businesses. The secondary thing that I would say is the people that have the strongest understanding of finance. They do the best go figure, right? The people that are at the strongest understanding of the cashflow in their businesses, you know, tracking everything correctly, they do the best.

And it's because I think mainly they have the clearest idea of what's going on in their business, the decisions they need to make that are really based more off data, uh, and, uh, and, and not necessarily subjectively, which I do think there's a mix there. I think, you know, You need data and then your gut tells you a lot as well.

Um, but if you can, if you have data and you feel like you're doing, make the right [00:15:00] decision, it's very likely you are. Um, and you know, I think those are, those are the two areas that I've noticed if people really lean more into those and they tend to be actually, I think the hardest skills for us to learn finance is boring, uh, for most people, especially clinicians.

Most of us are not great at math. I'm not a good, I'm not great with math. I'm, I'm fine with like adding and subtracting, multiplying and dividing, but historically, you know, I'm not a great math student. And, um, that's why I went into physical therapy and, and not, uh, you know, medical school. So a lot of us are like that.

So we avoid it. Uh, it's frustrating. And then leadership, like I said, it's a hard thing to learn and you make these mistakes and you can feel so frustrating as you're learning because you're really falling forward. You're failing forward as you make these mistakes. But if you can really take those two areas and try to become better at those over, you know, a period of time and be consistent with that, I think those are the two areas that are really going to make the biggest difference in whether [00:16:00] somebody's business is going to do well or somebody's business is going to be okay.

And they'll, they'll make it because We have a large, uh, group of people that need our help. So that's actually a huge advantage to what we're, to what we're doing. Very hard to offset us with, uh, any sort of technology. And, uh, but at the same side, like if you want a mediocre business, then just avoid being a good leader and have no idea how to run your business financially, you know, you'd be, you'll be mediocre at best, but if you want to be great, you need to learn those two areas really, really well.

Yves: Yeah, you're right. I mean, People may think this, but like, we haven't even gotten close to critical mass, right? Like, we can absorb so many more cash hybrid PT practices, right? Like, we are seeing more, right? There is now, probably for the first time in a while, legitimate competition where you probably go market somewhere or you want to start a practice somewhere.

And there's not just insurance based practices. There might be a couple of cash practices around you. So there's definitely more competition, but definitely we're not seeing it to the point where [00:17:00] it's like, I'm doing everything correctly from a marketing standpoint, I'm not getting new patients. So we're, I'm close to that, but I couldn't agree more, right?

Those two characteristics are key. And I think. The number one, if you're kind of listening to this and like, okay, how do I do this? I feel like the key is just, it's going to sound almost overly simple, but just do it. Do you know what I mean? Like you said, kind of failing forward. Like there's no, you can read books on leadership.

You can read books on, uh, finance, but like the number one way to get better at that skill is to do the skill, you know? Um, it's interesting. I was talking to one of our mastermind members and you know what a big theme I see. And I think both of actually went through it and are a testament to it. Your first clinician, you hardly ever keep.

Like I, I know very few people that kept their first clinician. You know, we both had our first clinicians started their own practices next, right? Like it's, there's, it just doesn't seem to happen. And so it's just, but the second and third, you get a lot [00:18:00] better at it. Just like you said, you understand what you want and you understand what you don't want.

You stand a little bit more on how to hire, how to onboard, how to retain. Like there's, and I couldn't read about that. I had to actually physically go do that in order to get better at that skill. And I just want to encourage everybody that you, you probably will fail the first time, maybe even a second or third time, continue to just like figure out what you want and, you know, um, get better at the skill by literally doing it.

Danny: Yeah, that's a really good point with the first clinician, by the way. Do you feel like you're the first clinician you hired? Is that, did you do anything that do you do? It, did you do anything that you feel like really kind of set that relationship up to not work out longterm? Or do you feel like that was just inevitable?

That's sort of, sort of the personality type of the individual that you hired. There was maybe a bit more entrepreneurial than maybe they thought.

Yves: Uh, I think it's a mix of both, but ultimately I look back and that there's a bunch of [00:19:00] things that I did wrong, right? Like I was for one very hands off, you know, I was doing PT biz and, uh, and at that point the startup as well.

So I kind of had this clinician, I thought they were very good clinically and I was just like, cool, go do your thing and see you later. Like no ongoing training, no, like we did a staff meeting kind of right. But like none of that. And even yeah. As I was trying to find ways to, um, exit made to move and become more into PT biz, I think, um, I didn't handle that well either, like how I had those conversations with that person and what that looked like, they really legitimately probably weren't really a good fit for something like that anyway.

Like there's like, you know, those are two things that stand out to me. There's, there's definitely, um, even more like, I didn't recognize some of the KPIs as well, where, you know, I was, you know, feeding this individual so many new patients, because that's all I was doing was marketing, and we were not keeping people around.

And I didn't really find that out until they left, right? And so like, that's on me. [00:20:00] That is a dumb move, you know? So, no, I can look on a bunch of things that I think I should have improved, I think, um, quite a bit, you know?

Danny: Yeah, it's almost like, uh, you can reverse engineer, right? What do you need to, what do you need to do to make sure that like that first person leaves, you know, it's a, okay.

Don't do any sort of ongoing work with them. Leave them alone. Don't communicate with them, you know, like over promise under deliver. Yeah. Don't give them any sort of. Uh, progression within the, within the business, you know, just, just make sure that they feel like it's a dead end job and there's, there's no opportunity for them to grow, um, no mentorship, you know, it's, it's funny.

It's like, if you, if you do that drill, um, and then just do the opposite of it, it can be pretty eye opening of what you really what you should be doing. Because I, I feel like for us, um, the first hire we had was a fucking stud. Like she's great, great physical therapist, super cool person, great culture [00:21:00] fit.

And you know, I look back at the, when, when she decided to go do her own thing and it was so odd, it was like, dude, we did everything wrong that last year in terms of what we just said. Right. We just basically, she was so reliable that we basically just said, Oh, cool. She's great. She's good. We can focus on these other things.

And you can't do that with people. Um, you just can't take away communication. And also, uh, we didn't, we didn't paint a very good picture of what, what it looked like going forward, uh, for, for what that role looked like. And for, for people that are sort of higher achievers. They want, um, the net to know what the next step is.

They want to know they're making progress towards something, whatever that is, that could be recognition title compensation path to partnership. You know, these [00:22:00] things that, uh, I didn't know anything about frankly, and neither did Ashley. Right. And we just, uh, we just expected people to do their job. We worked really hard with them.

And then we didn't do a very good job of, of giving them a vision of what they were working towards. And I can feel, uh, you know, frustrating for anybody in that environment. And so, yeah, looking back on it, There's a lot of mistakes we see people make. And it's funny for me to watch people do the exact same thing, even though we tell them that they shouldn't do it.

Uh, you know, it's, we, people will listen to this, I'm sure. And they might be like, oh crap, I'm doing all this, everything that they just said. And you'll probably still keep going on and doing it because you get busy and, you know, you have other stuff that happens and there's stress involved and. You prioritize more so to problems.

And I had somebody, they framed this. In a really interesting way. I think it is in a book. I can't remember where I saw this or I'd give them credit. But it's [00:23:00] about how you know, you really, um, you really focus on the problems or the weeds, right? Instead of the flowers in a garden that grow and they block out the sun to where the weeds can't grow.

So if you, if you really focus on your. Your a players on your team and really building those people up instead of the problem folks that you are always trying to like improve, um, you know, that can cause just as much of an improvement in the business as really getting your, your team, you know, that needs more of that mentorship and progress up to the level that you want them to.

And we tend to forget about the, the really stellar individuals because they don't need as much help, but it doesn't mean that they don't want it or deserve it. And I think that's a really great way to run somebody off. Yeah. In all intents and purposes is a great fit. And if you went through the hiring process and you put all the work in to train somebody up and get them onboarded and, and then, you know, you basically shoot yourself in the foot.

I mean, that's on you and it sucks and it doesn't feel good. And it's, it's a challenging transition. Um, every time it happens, [00:24:00] but hopefully you learn from it and hopefully you can learn from what we're talking about, because I think that's, that's something that is avoidable, uh, in most cases. So, and it's perfect example, right?

Like leadership. Turnover is so expensive. It's so, it crushes your clinic for months. Uh, it's, it's hard on you personally. It's confusing for the patients. And, um, you know, if you can keep the right people around that in its own right is going to help your clinic grow astronomically better than if you're losing somebody every one to two years.

Yves: Yeah, and and ultimately that is one of the biggest challenges right like we were talking again talking about this earlier where the playbook and Uh, even just like the inertia of starting your own practice making it profitable as a single provider and admin Is pretty pretty easy like we can do that.

You can learn marketing and sales We're kind of there. This next step where we kind of know you probably need your own standalone space, you probably need anywhere from three to four [00:25:00] clinicians, um, maybe a coach if you've got fitness stuff, um, and you got to do that really, really well. And that is, that is It's very hard to do like you've got to be good at all the things that we just talked about and even then you're probably still going to have turnover, you're still going to have a lot of difficulty in putting that all together.

And just as you said, like, it's trying to say this right way but like you need a players is what I want to focus on like we've now hired and let go of quite a few people. Definitely between the two of us and in these practices, you need some of these a players and that's the other thing I'm kind of seeing is people maybe hanging on to maybe the B player players too much or just as you said, focusing on trying to build them up and just saying, Oh, this person's fine.

They're selling packages. They're doing great clinically. I'm not going to spend any attention there. And what happens? You probably end up losing both. So I do think it's such a good point of, you know, probably finding the right people. We talk about finding and retaining [00:26:00] talent and like that retention piece I think is huge and what they want.

Is mentorship from you. What they want is to be led, you know, and you've got to get over whatever those things that you get over, whether it's in plaster syndrome, whether it's not having the time to do that, whether it's like pulling away from some of your clinical schedule to do that, but you. Got to do that in order to hit this next step where we want people to be where they're making really good income They've got a really that sweet spot of three to four clinicians.

They can pay them. Well, um, you know, that's the skill it's needed

Danny: Hey, sorry to interrupt the podcast I have a huge favor to ask of you If you are a long time listener or a new listener and you're finding value in this podcast Please head over to itunes or spotify or wherever you listen to the podcast and please leave a rating and review This is actually very helpful for us to get this podcast And really help them develop time and financial freedom.

So if you do that, I would greatly appreciate it. Now, back to the podcast. [00:27:00] Yeah. And, uh, you know, I think the other challenge is early on, you have to get really good at sales and marketing. You're sitting, you're, you're selling and marketing yourself and, and to get to the stage where you're full, your schedule's full is, um, you know, it's very doable.

And for a lot of people, it might make sense just to stay there, depending on what you, what, depending on what your goals are, what, what you put value in and which ones you like to look like. I think for many people that just want to be a really great clinician, if they do that, I don't think it's the safest place to say, but I can see why it would make sense for.

For a lot of people to be able to increase what they didn't increase what they make to treat people in a way that they want to treat people and you know, to really just be, it's a, it's a lifestyle business, right? You're basically, you're increasing your income, which in a lot of ways, as long as you're being intelligent with that money, instead of you building a business that has value, you're [00:28:00] going to take that and you're going to.

Invest at other places that are going to help build, you know, wealth outside of, uh, outside your business, just as you would if you're an employee, right? Um, it's gotta be careful because if you, if you get hurt, there's a lot of problems with that. If you're like a family that you are, uh, you know, helping provide for.

That can be kind of not the safest place, um, as an individual that's just, you know, self employed, uh, but again, it can, it can be a nice trade off from, uh, maybe a clinical environment that you don't feel like you want to function in and you have a lot more autonomy over how you're going to work with people.

So I think it's the trade off. I made that trade off. I thought that's what I was going to do. I didn't think we were actually going to ever scale past ourself, which, and I was totally fine with that, um, and then, but then what happens is, you know, You go from having to be really good sales and marketing to then have to be really good at HR and leadership.

Uh, so management and human resources and hiring. Um, so you, so you have to go from sort of the sales marketing skill set to a operations skill set, which, you know, you may [00:29:00] not be very good at, or maybe you are really good at it. And the sales and marketing was higher, harder for you. Um, But I mean, for me, I was fortunate enough to have a spouse that was really strong operator.

And, uh, and we were able to work well together and grow. And I think that's such a huge advantage. I didn't even realize how much of an advantage it was at the time because we didn't know any different. We just were like, okay, well, it is actually going to go back to run a non profit to make 35, 000 a year with no vacation or benefits.

That was more than what daycare was costing us at the time, you know, it didn't even make any sense. So for her to come in and, uh, and help out was, was kind of a no brainer. But if you don't have that, that's when I think it becomes really, um, you know, you have to make a decision whether you're going to look to hire somebody that's going to help offset some of that, um, you know, or maybe that's a strategic partnership that people look for as far as, you know, growth is concerned.

That was like even me with PT biz, like you and Jared are far stronger operators than I am. Like, I am not, I am not good at running a [00:30:00] company. I'm good at getting things started, uh, and I'm good at sales and marketing, but I'm not, I'm not a good operator at all. I'll ruin a business cause I'll get too bored and then I'll like search for things that, whoa, can we do different?

Let's change this. Let's change that. And people like myself, if you're listening to this and that sounds like you, As you grow at a certain stage, you really need to get operationally driven people in that you can hire, whether that's a really strong office manager that can help offset some of that. Or maybe it's a, uh, a clinician that's very operationally minded that has an interest in that.

You have to be on the lookout for these things. Cause it's almost like, it's almost like a puzzle you have to put together. But you don't actually, you kind of know what you want it to look like, but you don't really fully know what it looks, want it to look like. And it also could change on you. Uh, so if you can imagine trying to find these pieces, if you don't know what you're working towards or what it looks like, it becomes so much harder to know if you're, if you're looking for the right thing or if you're putting it in the right place.

And that is where I think just having a clear idea of what you want your business to look like and [00:31:00] why you're working towards that is so important because The next stage is you can make so many mistakes, even if you do know what you're trying to build towards that, uh, you know, if you don't, it's almost inevitable, you're going to, you're going to make some bad decisions unless you get incredibly lucky, which can happen as well.

You know, you may just get super lucky and there's, you know, something to be said for that good for you, but that's a very hard thing to engineer.

Yves: Yeah, we definitely have some of those practices where they're just in like a certain demographic or certain town where this doesn't exist, and they just have a foothold in that community, and they just grow like gangbusters, and it's really cool, um, to see.

And you can make a lot of mistakes that way because just getting new patients on a regular basis can definitely offset a lot of mistakes, uh, period. But again, it does not seem to be, or at least definitely less so than it was. Like we said, maybe pre COVID five, six years ago, it's definitely significantly, um, less, you know, you've got to be, um, much better at what you're doing.

I love that puzzle analogy a hundred percent because, you know, we talk about this all the time, investing [00:32:00] in yourself, skill stacking, you know, there's just so many skills that you need, you know, just like you said, getting good at sales and marketing, you can make for sure. We know these numbers, like, 200 plus k um, a month pretty easily.

Just being by yourself, low overhead. If you do a good job investing that money into other places, like you can have a really good income. Right. But risk, go ahead. 200

Danny: KA year.

Yves: A year.

Danny: Not a month. Just to be, just to be Sorry. I just wanna make sure somebody's like, wait a second, $2.4 million, like no two.

Yeah. You're doing amazing.

Yves: Yeah. Yeah.

Danny: Not, not, not a, not, not a month, but yeah. No, even still, that's like way more than somebody who's gonna make working in a clinic for sure.

Yves: Right, and your overhead's really low. So yeah, sorry, like 20k a month is like we see that some of the providers be able to pull that in consistently, working hard, but not necessarily, probably not as hard as they were working as an employee.

So, you know, we just love seeing that. So you got kind of sales and marketing and then you're right, it's like HR, it's, uh, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, knowing your finances, KPIs, it's leadership, you know, it's management of staff, like, [00:33:00] that's those next pieces of the puzzle that need to come into play to be able to put all this stuff, um, I think, together.

And you gotta, you know, choose your path because this is the cool part. Again, what we're seeing a change is that now clinics are basically sellable. We're like, you know, when we started, cash PT wasn't scalable, and now it's scalable, but you know, does it actually, does private equity actually want to buy this?

And like, we had people approach us, you know what I mean? Like there's clinics and big box, big boxes who are trying to literally find cash practices. And bring them together to be able to, you know, to sell. So, um, that's definitely more doable than ever. So that kind of becomes your investment as opposed to taking the cash and put it into other things.

You know, you're putting your, all your money, um, your time and energy in your business, hoping that at some point you can sell it, you know, at a couple multiple and, and retire, which I think is more valid now than it has ever been, which is really cool, right? We have both sold, so we kind of know that, but, um, we did it internally, but like doing it, [00:34:00] um, You know, externally, I guess would be or to private equity or to, you know, these bigger box, uh, businesses, um, is more doable than ever and probably only get more popular, um, as time goes on.

Like, we definitely see that trend.

Danny: Well, yeah, I mean, real numbers for clinics like recently that we've had, that we've helped, um, uh, seller practice outright, no earn out, you know, you're looking at somewhere between currently three to five X of what they've considered EBITDA. If you just want to think of it like, like net, uh, what your business net income is, uh, is probably an easier metric to think about.

So let's say you had, I don't know, 200, 000 in net income on an annual basis. Uh, you that you have from that business, you can probably sell that for 600, 000 to 1, 000, 000. Um, currently, and you got to keep in mind, interest rates are high, historically high, uh, in comparison to, you know, the last few decades.[00:35:00]

Um, and. As interest rates go down, the valuations of businesses go up. So it's because you can borrow money for cheaper. You're not paying as much. It's sort of like a house, right? So if interest rates go down, you can afford a mortgage payment, a bigger, a bigger home because it has a lower mortgage payment because you're paying less in interest.

Well, businesses, they function very similarly, right? So if we're seeing that right now, a three to five X, you know, the interest rates cut in half, then does that multiple go up for sure? It does. Hard to say exactly what that's going to be. I mean, if you look at adjacent industries, uh, veterinary dentists, like they sell insane multiples really high.

I have a friend that sold his, his 23 X multiple as a veterinary practice. Um, yeah. And that was to. Private equity. So this was the last sale we had of, uh, of a cash practice was to a individual investor that was buying a, uh, a cash based practice, [00:36:00] uh, as a investment. Um, actually, and it was kind of interesting deal the way that they were structured, but yeah, there, there's definitely.

There is an opportunity to be able to grow and sell these businesses. And I've had enough time to spend around private equity and investment bankers now that I've realized they will sell anything if they feel like they can make money on it. And it's mainly an arbitrage. So this is what I've noticed that I think is so interesting.

You have to keep this in mind with your business. When you're really looking at like what people are talking about with selling businesses. So if somebody approaches you to buy your business, That is in a, uh, what is considered private equity. So private money, um, or if they're like a venture capital, like again, private money firm, they're probably going to buy your business along with 10 other businesses in that same area.

Uh, most likely. Or maybe not even the same demographic area, but they get it up to a certain amount of profit that then puts them in a different multiple scenario. So they might go from a three X that they pay you to, then they get [00:37:00] enough of these businesses and it moves them up to an eight X or a nine X.

And now they just tripled their money just by essentially bringing these businesses together. So, um, you know, and you may not care. You may not care if you just want to sell your business, that's fine. But keep in mind that you can also do this yourself in terms of if you can grow your business big enough to where you get your net profit at a high enough number to where you start to change your multiple, because it will go up.

If you have a hundred thousand dollars in net profit, you're not going to have as high of a multiple as if you have a million dollars in net profit, puts you in a completely different class. So if you really want to sell a practice, my opinion is. Build a big fucking practice. Like it's hard enough to build a small practice.

It's our medium practice. You might as well go for a big one. If that's really what you want to do, if you want to grow and sell and you want to hit a home run, then go, go big. Like that's, that's my advice. As far as that goes, if you want to have a cashflow in business that is, you know, something you want to run for a long time, you don't need to be that big.

You know, you could be. [00:38:00] Somewhere between 500, 000 and, you know, maybe 2 million a year, uh, annually, which does sound like a lot. That's a lot of money, but even still, that's something that's in the grand scheme of things, not a huge business and something that can be run. You can still be active in and enjoy that and build a cool culture, uh, and, you know, and generate a lot of revenue that still has enterprise value could sell one day, but, you know, maybe it's not going to sell for as much of a multiple.

And again, this comes back to the whole conversation of, you know, Understanding what you're, what puzzle are you building? What race are you running? What we're like, what's the whole point of this? Cause if you don't know what you're doing, first of all, then how do you know if you're making the right decisions and you may very well regret what you decided to do in the decision, as soon as you go, you end up in a place and all of a sudden you're like, well, crap, how did I get here?

I don't think I like this. Why did I make all these decisions? And at that point, it's kind of hard to undo that, right? You can't really say you can't put the, you can't run ring that bell or put the Toothpaste back in the tube. It doesn't work that way. You know, so you really need to know where you're going from the get go.

Otherwise, it's, you know, there's a lot of regret potentially associated with that.

Yves: Yeah, I think it's the [00:39:00] word I like to use is alignment. And, um, you've got time, you know, like, let's just say, I know I don't want to be a clinician. I want to run my own business. Um, great, you know, um, and we just kind of laid out multiple options there, right?

But you've got to align what your life What you want your life to look like, you know what I mean? And, uh, what you're striving towards, like you said, and there are totally different paths. I've definitely seen people who are like, I want to go big or go home. And they kind of try and try and try. And you just like tell, it's just like not there.

They kind of want to just be a smaller business, you know, maybe even just a lifestyle business and keep it easy, keep it clean, keep it clean. Or, um, you know, people that get, you know, You know that want more but get stuck at just being um, a smaller business because they have not developed um that skill set so I mean you're so right and and I think If you're in the entrepreneurial world and you're listening to us, you probably are what we don't spend enough time on.

I know we're kind of all over the place today, but we don't spend enough [00:40:00] time on is probably just like sitting back and thinking a little bit about where we're trying to go. And what are we actually doing with our lives? Because it can just be so easy kind of circle back. We said before to just like, Just to do work, like you can, you know, I can work all day all the time if I really wanted to, um, and move the business forward, but like taking time to really understand where am I trying to go, you know, what am I actually doing here?

Those are just like important questions, I think, just to ask yourself on a regular basis, because I've noticed in myself And with the people that we work with, if we put time and energy around that, guess what else happens? Not only are we more aligned, but we also just do better, and we're much happier.

And, you know, obviously there's a lot to be said for that. Like, we say this all the time, but like, you're not just trying to just run yourself into the ground, and just, you know, be, uh, a millionaire, but you're extremely unhappy. Like, you know, take the time to really figure out, um, these kind of small things, you know, and be able to enjoy the journey a little bit, [00:41:00] like something we've both had to learn the hard way.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you can skip it. I've thought about this, and I don't know if you can listen to what I'm telling you, and you not really, like, put some other areas of your life in kind of a bad position for a while. Um, I haven't met anybody that has just been like, Dude, I have complete balance

Yves: since

Danny: day one.

What a point. What a good point. I had all my goals. I checked all the boxes. I maintained, uh, Impeccable health fantastic relationships with everybody around me, you know, and uh, I don't I don't know uh, if it's possible and and partially I don't know if it's possible, because I don't know if you have the comparison to be able to appreciate it.

So, you know, it's like, how do you know what cold is if you haven't been hot? You know, if you haven't, if you haven't experienced a Charleston summer, you can't appreciate, uh, a summer in steamboat quite as [00:42:00] well. Like, you just don't know the difference and vice versa. If you haven't experienced the winter like that, you don't know what it's like to have a mild 1.

That's like, you can go to the beach. Right? Like, there's there's there's perspective there. And. So it's, it's almost like we can talk about these things and hopefully you catch it earlier before it's too much of a problem that you can't come back from, but you're probably going to work too much. You're probably going to end up stressed out and you're going to have bad sleep and you know, you're, you're going to prioritize work over family things.

And there's going to be a period of time where that happens. Because I'm not sure if you're trying to build something of significance that's challenging, that you can do it with complete balance the whole time. I just don't think I could have done it. And honestly, uh, looking back, it's like, I, I like where I'm at.

Like, I, I am very grateful for the life that I have, but also, you know, I, I, there's plenty of things I wish I hadn't done, but also if I hadn't done it, I probably wouldn't, I [00:43:00] wouldn't have ended up here either. Right. So, it's hard to say. What that looks like. I think you got to just be okay with the fact that you're going to have to go through some challenging things and make some compromises.

And as long as you know, you are, you're, you understand where you're going and the people around you understand that too. I think that's the biggest thing to communicate. When you have these growth cycles that are so hard or these things that are really stressful and not just keep it inside, which is, I did that a lot.

Just like, I didn't want to burden anybody with anything else. I was just, just fuck it. I'm just going to take it. And that leads to a lot of other problems. So, you know, like, that's probably the only thing maybe you can take from this where the shit's going to get hard. But just don't, don't like try to internalize it all because I think that's a terrible thing to do versus really work on trying to communicate with the people around you that are important to you, that you want them to know what you're working towards, why it's important.

Um, and also listen to them too, because one of the things you might realize, and I've had entrepreneur friends of mine that are like this, and I had the same thing where you're like, Oh man, this is so important. I'm doing this for, for our family. And then you [00:44:00] actually talk to your family and they're like, we don't give a fuck what you do.

Like I had this, I remember. Our kids were real small and it was, uh, it was Christmas and I was like, man, we did it. You know, like they had, we got them this bad ass toys, like shit that I never had as a kid. Right. Just like never would have been, my parents would never been able to afford it. And they're playing with the cardboard box that it came in.

They don't even give a shit about, you know, the actual toy. And, uh, and you're sitting there and you're like, They don't care. They just want to be around you and enjoy the time with you. And they literally care more about a cardboard box and whatever toy that you know, you just spent a bunch of money on.

And that's really important perspective too, to just realize like, it's not as important as you maybe think don't put so much stress on yourself, but you know, balance, I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can do it. I'm not sure it was possible.

Yves: Yeah, I think it's, it's easy, probably in our own minds to create justification as to why we're working so hard because it gets, frankly, very addictive and we both know that right like it's something it was easier back then to just work hard than it [00:45:00] would be to probably have some of those hard conversations that you had with yourself on a regular basis, right?

Because. It's what you know, you're probably good at it at that point, you see results, and you know, to be like, actually this all doesn't really matter. You're like, what? You know what I mean? Like, why am I doing this? You know what I mean? So, um, those are definitely difficult conversations to have, but, um, I love that we talk about it because, you know, I definitely didn't hear anybody talking about that at the time.

Like, we just had to bust, learn that. Luckily, we had amazing people around us who called us on our bullshit, um, frequently. You know what I mean? Spouses and, and honestly kids even. You know, which, which helped us a lot. So, you know, um, yeah. You've got to put those things in perspective. Here's, here's something else too.

Like, this is an interesting book I'm reading. We're gonna see if this analogy works or not. I'm reading a book called The Anxious Generation, and, uh, I'm most of the way through, but it's basically just saying, like, when we grew up, uh, me and you, Dani, we grew up in a play based [00:46:00] childhood. We went out and we went outside for, you know, till it was dark, you know, participated in risky behavior.

Do you know what I mean? Whether it's, like, fighting, playing sports, like, jumping over rocks, things like that. And now in today's world, they're calling it like a phone based childhood where they're not going outside and doing things as much. And the reason I thought of that is you just said like it was a necessary, uh, risk you needed to take, like you needed to go through it.

You couldn't just learn. And so, uh, it's like almost the analogy as kids, like kids need to go out and kind of like fly too close to the sun, need to kind of figure out like, Where things are risky and going too far to kind of learn how hard they can push. And I think in an entrepreneurial life, it's almost the exact same thing.

You're so right. I've actually never thought about it until you just said it is we've got to do that. We've got to kind of see how far we can take it to kind of learn Where that level actually is, you know, in order to do that. And I really thought about that. I never thought about it as a necessary part of an [00:47:00] entrepreneurial journey, but I think you're completely right.

Like I do not know anybody either. And we know a lot of entrepreneurs successful in it, you know, done it and failed that just hadn't, you know, Gone through that or aren't just continuously going through that. Honestly, like constantly probably pushing it a little bit too far on a regular basis. So I think it's just part of almost human nature, which is, which is interesting to think about.

Just an interesting thought.

Danny: Yeah, I think it's how you learn, right? I mean, I think it's a It's, it's, it's definitely how kids learn. I don't know, like as adults, it's, it's definitely how we learn as well. You would think, I would hope that you can, you can read things, you can listen to things, and you can, you can take those lessons from other people and you can apply them to your own life.

But I think it's hard because you have to have a lot of self awareness as to where your limitations are and be pretty honest with yourself about what you need to improve, um, and, And not a lot of people are I don't think are willing to do that. Um, it's hard, it's hard for anybody. It's hard for me to do that.

It's hard for, I mean, it's, it really makes you feel, you know, any [00:48:00] amount of ego you may have in check. And if, but, but if you, but if you can do that, I think you can learn from other people and other resources, uh, without having to completely like, you know, crash and burn yourself. There's no way you're going to learn a lesson any, any, uh, any better though.

And, you know, I, I would say. As far as resources go and something that, that I've just, I've just recently reread, um, is a book called die with zero, which is a really interesting, uh, book that is more about like your, it's, it's funny. I've really delved into people's relationship with money. I find it really fascinating, uh, having to spend a lot of time myself, just kind of trying to figure out You know, why am I so motivated to like with businesses?

Why am I so motivated to it's really a security thing, you know for for me, even though it's You know, you can take it too far as well. And, but, but we don't look at time the same way that we do money sometimes. And that's really what this book is about is really like understanding your [00:49:00] relationship with money and time.

And I found it fascinating, like really, really fascinating. I've recommended it to a lot of people. And, and if you're listening to this, maybe it's a great book for you to read. Maybe the book that he just recommended is a good book for you, for you to read. I think it depends on where you're at and the things that you're sort of trying to understand better at the time.

Uh, but for me, what was cool about this was like really having a better understanding of. Uh, being intentional, being intentional with. Your time and, uh, especially times where you can, like, bring people together and, and not just like, we get so busy that we forget to even, like, try to plan something. It could be as simple as literally getting your family together for, you know, on, on a weekend to get together and, like, cook out or something like that.

And, but, like, oh, everybody's so busy. They got their game and they've got, you know. You know, this thing going on in the dance recital or whatever. And it's especially when you have kids, it gets so hard, but, you know, being able to be intentional, just like we are in our businesses. And this is what I think is so fascinating about these skills, you're learning business where we are planning and we're being [00:50:00] intentional about decisions we're making and things like that, because we want to end up in a certain place, as far as business goes, you can apply the same thing.

To life and how you're trying to detail out, you know, the things that you're doing to have the relationships that you want, the experiences that you want that, you know, all the things that encompass the life that you want, whatever that is to you, uh, but, but don't do that by accident or, or by chance and hope that it works out to what you want.

Like fucking make it happen. You know, if you want to have a better relationship with your, you know, You know, dad spend more time with your dad, right? Like, if you want to have a more relationship, more relationship with your your neighbors, then be the person that brings those people together because they're just as busy as you and they may not actually learning those things.

Right? So somebody's got to do it. Might as well be you. And that's what I got from that book. I think. If anybody's sort of curious about stuff like that, that that was been a really, you know, a really, really, uh, interesting read for me, just, you know, in terms of what, what I'm interested in, what my goals are outside of just business at this point in time.

Um, and you know, those skills you learn, it's funny how you can point them at [00:51:00] other things and it's really beneficial in those, uh, elements as well.

Yves: Yeah, 100%. I mean, we do have to realize, you know, the time is a finite resource, right? They have this, uh, uh, stoic calendar. I think Peter Atiyah has it where literally, I think it's like how many weeks you have left to live or something like that.

And it's like literally a chart and you can just see it kind of dwindling and it's a reminder just to kind of live every day. And so, um, yeah, a lot of people don't realize that, right? Like, yeah, they might be more interested in growing and making more money than, you know, spending time, uh, you know, Um, with people they love or just, uh, enjoying their life.

I'll tell you one, um, it wasn't even intentional, but it's, uh, let's call it a secret that I learned that really helps me with that, because I am a very structured human. Like, I will do the same thing every day, at the same time, day in, day out, and, and keep that structure. And that can be useful. In a lot of ways, but also can be difficult, especially if you want to spend more time with family or do something like that.

A pattern interrupt is huge. Like us [00:52:00] coming to Colorado, you want to bring a family together, move your entire family across the country where you know nobody except each other. You know what I mean? Like a great pattern interrupt. Even for myself, like changing my routine, now I'm on Mountain Time, like I just had to do things differently, which would just allowed me to reprioritize things in a way.

So that's great. It's, it's also the, one of the reasons why we push. Our events so hard like in the mastermind because it's a huge pattern interrupt for people. I see it all the time. It's not even the the conversations are great. The content's great, but like they literally have to leave their lives and come just like lock themselves in a room for two days and just like do something totally different that they wouldn't do otherwise.

And people just leave and only think they realize it just like with a totally different perspective because they just completely change their routine. So it's another hidden way I think to to get Um, to what you're looking for, um, you know, what you're talking about, dire zero is just like, you know, interrupt things a little bit, you know what I mean?

Like don't work for a day, see how that goes. Like, you know, there's small things you can do. You don't have to all [00:53:00] move across the country, although it was effective for me. Um, that's a great way to, to get some perspective there.

Danny: It's a great point with, I mean, the live events in particular, you know, I think what's interesting about that.

I have not thought of that as like a pattern interrupt, right. But it really is, it takes you out of your sort of day to day grind and And I, I've always found that people that come to one of one of these events, and maybe this is any event, maybe it's not just ours, but I feel like one of the things that we that we have culturally is a group of people that are interested in learning from each other.

Um, And, and that's a really rare, I think it's a rare group of people, especially when you can get 250 people together that are like, honestly, they're, they're all running similar businesses. They all have similar backgrounds, but they live in all kinds of different situations, settings, towns, like family dynamics, all kinds of stuff.

And, [00:54:00] uh, the variance of viewpoints, uh, where people come from, but yet really like deep core values are the same. It's a really interesting thing to experience with. Um, you know, with other people, I think there's a lot of growth that comes from that that does positively affect their business a lot. And 1 of the things that I think we see more than anything is it affects them personally just as much and as well as you have a group of people that understand what you're going through, they can, they can, uh, you know, they can relate in ways that other people cannot.

Uh, that, that you, you know, maybe your friends, family, whatever, even maybe other people that are entrepreneurs, but it's similar types, not the same kind of business or same kind of background. Um, but when you get somebody that lives in one of the, you know, New York boroughs and somebody that lives in a town of 10, 000 people in Montana, Uh, and they start talking about how their life is different as well.

It's really fascinating to kind of overhear some of those conversations and be a part of some of those [00:55:00] conversations and, uh, and what they're, what they're talking about aside from the business side. And I think that's, that's huge. Uh, that's one thing that I agree with you, like a new setting enough to just remove your family somewhere else.

It can literally be just travel, you know, experience a different place and how people live and what they find normal. Like that right there, it just changes your view on like. You know, what you think is right or wrong, right? We have all these like hard sets like, oh, this is the right way to do this or whatever.

It's like, well, it's right way here, maybe for you. Or is it the best way, you know, or like, so that's, that's what I think these group events in general can, can be so helpful for us to just sort of like break your pattern, you know, get you around other people that maybe challenge you in a positive way.

Make sure to look at what you're doing as is this really the best way to do it, you know, or, uh, and, and a number of levels, uh, and, and it's such a healthy thing to learn that way. So, you know, I always look forward to our events. This has been, I don't even know how many would have met number this is for us.

It's a lot, but, uh, every single time that I get a chance to go to one, I always come back and I'm, there's like [00:56:00] some, I learned something from somebody I didn't expect, uh, which is, you know, which is, which is, The most fun part of the whole thing, uh, is just sort of the, you know, it's a surprise, who knows, I have no idea what I'm going to learn in Dallas when we're there, it's going to be awesome.

I'm gonna have a great time, you know, it's going to be fun. It's going to be a lot of work, but, um, yeah, if you're not doing that yourself, I think that to what you're saying, just you need stuck in your routine over and over again, it can feel like you're just, it's like groundhog's day, right. Or the Truman show.

And it's just, nothing changes. And. Nothing changes because you're not around anybody that's thinking differently than you. And I think that's a, that's not a really healthy place to be either.

Yves: Totally agree. I think, uh, leading with one kind of actionable item, that would be a huge action item that kind of will just help downstream that downstream effect, I think can be pretty massive, right?

Like we see huge changes in businesses. We see huge changes in people's, you know, lifestyle, lifestyle or perspective. Um, you know, by just bringing in some of these outside forces or pattern interrupts, [00:57:00] like we said, so it can make some huge differences. Like a lot can change in one conversation.

Ultimately, it has to be in person.

Danny: I see a lot of digital communities and those are beneficial. There's no doubt about that, but man, there's something different to meeting another person face to face, to having, to having to like, Go travel somewhere and be together with another person. Uh, and for some people that can be uncomfortable if you're a bit more introverted, like I do not like big groups of people.

I don't, I don't do well in them. Not, I can, I can assimilate into a group just fine, but it is exhausting for me. It's so hard for me. Like, I just will be, I'll be wrecked and even still, like, if that's you, you fall into that same category. It's still important to get out of your little bubble to get off the internet, to go and, you know, to experience some of, uh, you know, some of these things we're talking about in person, um, so that you can, you know, you can actually get the full benefit from that.

And, uh, you know, humans are meant to communicate face to face. Right. We talk to each other very differently when we're around each other. We can read [00:58:00] each other differently. You know, we are much nicer to each other face to face than we are on Twitter or whatever, right. Or whatever it's called X, uh, especially in the profession.

We shit on each other constantly about, you know, Oh, you shouldn't, you shouldn't teach him how to squat that way. It should be this way. It's like, okay, whatever, dude. Uh, you know, it's like that doesn't happen so much face to face, you know, in person it's far more. Uh, forgiving and gracious and, uh, and willing to kind of kind of compromise on things versus yelling at each other on the internet.

So, you know, if that's something that you feel like you're missing, this is, I mean, perfect opportunity. If you're a business owner, definitely check out physical therapy, biz. com. If you have a business or mastermind, like we get together twice a year in person. And it's worth the cost of admission just for that.

Honestly, I think, I think we could literally do nothing else and we just get together twice a year and we still would have people that are like ecstatic to be around with us for, you know, we have some, we actually looked at the other day, the other day. We have, uh, five people that are going on year six right now and a lot at year five.

I forget how many are [00:59:00] year five, but it's a good bit more than that. And I just think like, that's a long time. And it's so cool that we get people to stick around that long. So obviously they must be getting something, you know, positive out of it. Otherwise they're not, they're not sticking around. So, uh, I'm excited for it, but I guess we can leave it at that, man.

Uh, I guess the actual item, even if it's not to one of our events, you know, get out, go to bed. Uh, meet people that are from places that are different than you. Uh, that, I mean, if they can have the same career, that's awesome. I think that's a really cool way to kind of just, uh, connect with people. You have some, some stuff in common, but they come from a completely different environment.

And, uh, you know, and learn from other people, get out of your, out of your routine and, uh, you know, really just put yourself out there to learn and grow and then take what you learn and hopefully bring it home and you implement it. I mean, that's the key is just learn something, take it back and start to make a change.

Yves: Yeah, I think the face to face will only become more and more important as we could become increasingly more virtual. Like there is no substitute for it. 100%. Yeah, yeah, we had a lot to talk about. We hadn't, we hadn't chatted in a while. So, yeah,

Danny: I totally agree. Yeah, I mean, [01:00:00] hopefully, uh, not necessarily the tightest, uh, outline, but, you know, for us, this is what we're seeing in the profession.

Hopefully this is something that will help you. Um, you know, and if it doesn't, sorry, listen to one of the more tactical items that we do, but And, uh, but as always, if, you know, if you're listening, we appreciate it. Thanks so much. And, uh, we'll catch you guys next week.

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