E454 | Yves And Danny Insurance Fraud Conversation

We discussed the recent news break in physical therapy...

"An indictment issued Tuesday alleges that Hertel & Brown engaged in "creative billing practices" by submitting at least $22 million in false bills for 14 years, starting shortly after Hertel & Brown opened its first office in Erie in January 2007." 

This is obviously a symptom of a bigger problem.

Will we see more of these indictments in the coming months and years? 

Who here, has seen or even been a part of a practice with "creative" billing practice? I would wager a big percentage if not all.

This issue is not going away, and playing the insurance game is getting together and tougher.

How many will move away and go hybrid and cash?

Will these digital MSKD companies grow to replace us?

All topics we touched on!

Ready to elevate your practice? Book a call at the link below with one of our expert consultants today and start your journey to delivering unparalleled physical therapy.

PT Everywhere: https://pteverywhere.com/

Do you enjoy the podcast?  If so, leave us a 5-star review on iTunes and tell a friend to do the same!

Are you a member of our free PT Entrepreneur Facebook Group? Join today!

Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, I've got a question for you. Do you know if you're tracking the right data, the right metrics to the right key performance indicators in your practice? This is something that's huge for us and really helps us make solid decisions within our business, but the prior software that we're using to run our practice made it really challenging.

To actually get that data out and use it in reports. Since we've switched to PPG everywhere, this has actually become way, way easier for us to be able to have the right data. We have a dashboard of all the things that we actually want to see, the metrics that we want to pull, and it makes our life a lot easier to pull the information that we need to make the right decisions within our business.

So if you're running blind and you're not tracking the right things, or you're. Hard time actually pulling everything together. I highly recommend you check out our friends at PT Everywhere and see what they've got going on with their software platform. It's what we use for our practice. It's been a game changer for us.

You can check 'em [email protected]. I think you really like it. So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us who [00:01:00] don't wanna see 30 patients a day, who don't want to work home health and have real student loans create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about?

This is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Mate, and welcome to the PT Entrepreneur Podcast.

What's up guys? Danny here with the PT Entrepreneur Podcast and the PT Entrepreneur's Facebook group. If you're watching this live, thanks for tuning in. You can drop a comment in here. We'll answer it as we go. Today we're very fortunate to have somebody we've had a chance to work with someone I've actually we go way back actually, that I've known for quite some time.

Kelly Ahu, who owns Ortho Pelvic Physical Therapy in Sterling, Virginia. Kelly, I know how busy you are. You got a ton of stuff going on, so thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the podcast. Really appreciate it. No

Kelly: problem. Thank you for having me.

Danny: So we'll take it back, way back. Kelly and I both went to Georgia College and State University. It is an incredibly [00:02:00] long name for a very small school, and we were in the same exercise science program under the notorious Doctor Martino. Anybody who's been to that school knows who we're talking about. Maybe you probably haven't been there, but I'm interested like why, why exercise science, why physical therapy?

What was it for you that sort of drew you to the profession? Overall,

Kelly: Yeah, so for me, I just knew at a, at an early age that I just didn't want to have a job that I was standing behind a desk. So my brother was football player. I shadowed a p t when I was in high school and I was just sold. I luckily, I was one of those, I just knew what I wanted and I was like, that's it.

This is what I'm doing. And then I went for it. Yeah,

Danny: that's funny. So no, like injury that led to it. I feel like that's the most fun.

Kelly: No, I don't have a cool story like that. I was just like, yeah, I wanna move. I don't wanna sit.

Danny: Yeah. No. And I can definitely tell like there's certain people that were just go-getters and you were definitely like that from an early stage.

I definitely remember, I know you're super organized, you're always on, on top of things.[00:03:00] So it doesn't surprise me one bit what you've been able to do, which we can totally get into. But your path with PT though was a little different cuz you worked for a few different practices, some very niche dance specific ones.

So talk to us a little bit about like your first few years out of school and and then like eventually how you got to where you're at.

Kelly: Yeah, so I came out and I was actually working in Atlanta, Georgia like right down the road from Danny at that time. And I I was running the practice.

I also taught at private clubs, Pilates and yoga at these really prestigious clubs, capital City, you know them very well, Danny. Yeah. But I taught there. I also did private personal training and then while I was doing that, I started a concierge mobile practice for all the movie stars that would come into Atlanta at that time.

And I would go around to all the five star hotels and I would treat movie stars. So I would treat them at the hotels, I would treat them on set. I would, they would run out these Buckhead mansions and I would go there. So I was working from 7:00 AM to four o'clock. I was seeing [00:04:00] 18 patients just in clinic that day.

And then I would start treating like the movie stars around five o'clock. Five to sometimes three, four in the morning, and then I would wake back up and do the whole thing over again. So over the last, the I did that for four years. When I came outta school. Yeah. And it was a lot. And I got, that's

Danny: a ton.

Wait so you had your full-time, day to day job basically. And. You were just side hustling, working with, movie pre, and there's a shitload of that in Atlanta. I don't think people realize, Atlanta's like one of the, it's like the top, one of the top three places of film in the world.

There's just so many people here who's like the worst person you worked with who is like the biggest jerk? Anybody? Can you name and name him or just like it's a.

Kelly: It's a big director that does a lot of films in Atlanta and he was a pain in my butt.

Danny: That's what I'm saying. We'll leave it at that cuz maybe he listens to the podcast.

Probably not. Yeah. You never know. No. I always thought find that fascinating because people think of that As this world, it's so cool to get into. And I've had friends that have gone like on tour with [00:05:00] different bands or they'll go with, different plays that are traveling and it is brutal.

The hours are crazy, so for you, it's like after they get done with work, you're working with them, correct? Yeah. And I

Kelly: gotta ask the tour with Katie Perry for two years and I turned that down because I had to pick between my. Yep. For her and I, and this is when she did the Super Bowl and everything like that, and I couldn't be gone for that long, and I knew, even though it sounds glamorous, I knew that I would be treating until 2, 3, 4 am and that just wasn't gonna be my jam.

It's just not how I operated.

Danny: Yeah, I can do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it, it sounds right for sure. I'm sure there's like plenty of perks that come along with that or whatever. If don't have a family or somebody that you enjoy being around, they can't obviously be on a tour bus with you the whole time.

But it is cool they have those, professions. I wasn't even aware of that. I moved to Atlanta and there's a huge amount of that on like action movies where they need a PT on site, I guess it has something to do with their their union, that they have to have certain types of, jobs there.

So yeah, if you look at [00:06:00] our industry, most people think. Hospital or outpatient clinic. But then there's always like weird little sub niches, within that that you can get into. Okay. So you're grinding for a couple years, day job. Yeah. Late at night with this side hustle.

So you're obviously like getting out there. How did you bootstrap your own side hustle in that niche of an industry? I feel like that's like a hard place to break. Yeah,

Kelly: it was because they're, I would walk into the hotels and they'd be like, who are you? But the perk was, I think how I really got in and is, I was like, I'll comment anytime at night.

Cuz I lived in Buckhead right. By all these hotels. And we treated in Midtown too. But I was like, Hey, I'm right here. I can come. And I really, the timing was perfect. And then because I got in with the concierge, It's called the Atlanta Concierge Society. And so then I gave a big presentation to all the hotels, the five star hotels.

They actually all talk and collaborate. And I got in and I started talking with them and gave a big presentation. And then I got even more hotels referring to me. But like I said, I just [00:07:00] got so burnt out that I was like, I gotta do something different. Yeah.

Danny: But I think if we bring this, if we bring this back, right?

So you, you're just like cold showing. At a hotel, right? We're like, Hey, I can help somebody that's hurt, right? If they need it, and I'll show up whenever. That's right. That's like such a fucking baller thing to do. That's it's crazy. There's very few people that I think would actually, do that.

A they probably would just be like a worried that they'd get turned down or whatever that would make them feel. But also, it's hard to do something like that just in general. What gave you like, the internal confidence and be like, yeah, I can make this work even though, it's obviously a pretty daunting thing for somebody to get into.

Kelly: I just said, let me try it and if it doesn't work great. Yeah. And then I just kept having a conver, I look at anything that I approach as I'm just gonna have a conversation. So whether or not someone wants to talk to me that day, and don't get me wrong, like I had multiple times where they were like, yeah, okay.

Will see you and. Standing at the desk for 30 minutes and no one came to see me. And I'm like, cool, I'll come back cuz I got patients, I gotta go to the clinic. So I would just keep approaching it like that cuz I would [00:08:00] walk all over the city and just stop in and be like, Hey, what's up?

How are you doing today? And I honestly, if you treat anything like a conversation, like someone's your best friend, they'll eventually start talking to you. I wasn't selling anything, I was just trying to hang out with him. That was.

Danny: That was it. That's funny. That's, it's that's the gatekeeper people too, right?

So who the, who are the people that are there to turn people like you away. And the more you wear 'em down, the more opportunities you have. That's great. Okay, so let's go back. You're tired, like you guys are, you're working whoever knows how many hours, per week.

Yeah. A lot. And then okay, from there, where did you go next?

Kelly: Yeah, so then my husband's in the PT two and we decided we were so burnt out. So we decided, you know what? We're gonna sell everything. We're gonna be those people. So we sold everything. We had one bag each, and we moved to Portland, Oregon because we wanted a healthier, calmer life.

So what? So that we thought and then moved out there. I worked for a practice that did orthopedics and pelvic. And at this time in Atlanta, I was pretty [00:09:00] much from what I knew in Buckhead, the only person that was doing pelvic health to be honest. I didn't know anyone at that time. This was 11 years ago or 10 years ago, whenever it was a while back ago.

Not too many people were doing pelvic health And we moved out to Portland and I'm worked for like this hybrid company of orthopedic and pelvic health. Enjoyed that. We hated the rain, got tired of that. So stayed there for about two years and then we decided to move to Southern California because we wanted the sun.

And there is when I met Julie Sarton. And for start physical therapy. You guys don't know her. You guys should check her out. She's awesome. But there was a cash-based physical therapy practice and that was my first look at the cash based practice. And I was the clinical director there as well.

So I was running the whole thing and I was like, you know what, like I could really make a big impact here. And I was really trying to run that clinic to the best of my abilities. And I stayed there for about a year and then my husband's [00:10:00] dad got sick and that's what drove us to the, where we are now in Northern Virginia because he's from here.

And so we had to then move cuz he has a l s So we had to then move from Southern California, which was our dream place to live. And that drove us to Northern Virginia. And I was like so bummed about it. It was horrible. I didn't know anyone. No one knew me. I built up my whole career, like I felt like I was a really good pelvic health physical therapist.

I was at the place that I wanted to be. Julie's awesome. And I had to leave it, I had to give it all up and I was not happy about it. And so I came to Northern Virginia and I'm like, what am I gonna do? And I was like, this sucks that I'm here, but I have to make it into a positive. So what I'm gonna do?

So I started Ortho Pelvic the second I got here. And I actually worked for a outpatient orthopedic clinic physician owned, I absolutely hated it. Everyone that I worked with, they knew I hated it. And I was like, that's it. I have to get out of this thing. And [00:11:00] basically what drove me to make the decision to pull out, which was very Because I felt like I had to do I had to just do the thing, and if I didn't do it, then I was like, I don't know, not like good enough or something like that.

So I was, there was one time where I, my dad was not doing well. He had, he was sick and they were like, yeah, you can't have Christmas break off. And I was like my dad has like terminal cancer. I need to go and see him in Atlanta. And they would not let me off. And I was. Screw this, like I am not dealing with this anymore.

And I remember them putting a lot of pressure on me to do notes a certain way and I just wasn't that tight. I really wanted to put hands on patients. And I got so sick I was so burnt out. Like I was just so worn down that I couldn't take it anymore. And this was a week before hit. I put in my two weeks and when I put in my two weeks, they even my head boss, I called her bawling my eyes out because I told my mom like, mom, I'm gonna quit.

And my mom [00:12:00] was like, yeah, do it. My dad was like, hell no, don't leave. You have a stable job. Like you're not gonna recover from this. My brother that's in business, he was like, Do you have a three month business plan? And I was like, no, I have zero. So they were all not on board with me leaving except for my mom, and I was just so worn out at that point.

I was like, you know what? If I have to live in a tent, like I will be way happier and way better off if I lived in a tent and quit. So I called my head boss as I'm bawling, crying for five hours making this decision and I'm like, look, I have to quit and I'm only giving you two weeks. And she was like no.

Give me four. Because I need to hire someone. And I was like, I can't, I literally can't come back. And she was like Kelly, you're just hired. We'll give you two months off and then we'll hire you back or we'll keep you on payroll, but we'll just hire you. We'll have you come back just whenever you're ready.

And I was like, No, I'm putting in my two weeks today and literally the last day of where I was at of that full-time job, COVID hit ah. And [00:13:00] I had zero patience on my schedule as Ortho Pelvic and I was like, oh shit, what do I do? Damn. So yeah, that's how that happened.

Danny: Yeah. That's, you guys are, you guys have bounced around a lot.

It's really interesting. Yeah. Of the places you've been. I'm interested like this idea of work life balance, right? Yeah. Like you, you had a couple places that you liked and the work. Do you think that location is more important than the the work that you're doing or the work is more important than the location?

Are they about the same? Think me about the

Kelly: same because the loca ca California was amazing. Like everything, like we played volleyball in December on the beach. Yeah. So like the whole vibe of that is cool. Sure. But I also liked, like I said, I also liked working for Julie. I liked that I could only saw seven patients a day.

That was a huge difference from in Atlanta when I was seeing 18 patients a day, or even in Portland, I actually had a PTA that actually worked for me and she would take over half my patients. So in Portland, They have really good reimbursement. I don't know if you guys know this, they have the best, [00:14:00] right?

And we I didn't, I maybe saw five patients a day, but it just got, so Portland's the most beautiful place in the summer, but it just got so rainy that you had to get out of there.

Danny: Yeah. I think that it's interesting when you start talking about, where you were at in California, right?

I talk to a lot of people that I consider like reluctant entrepreneurs. They didn't necessarily want to do their own thing. They just get in an environment. It was so frustrating for them that they almost didn't have a choice. Do you think that if you would've stayed in California, would you have eventually started your own place, or do you think you would've been pretty content where you

Kelly: were at?

I would've been content. I would've never done it. I didn't e I didn't even wanna start a business, to be honest. I was forced, just like you just said. I was forced to start a business because my pain was so bad being at an outpatient orthopedic place and I was still doing pelvic health cause I was the only one out of a hundred therapists here doing pelvic health.

It was so bad. I said I have to leave. And my health was like deteriorating, like no one's business. So I said I have to no matter what. Yeah,

Danny: I think I lot people get to that point. It's where they, you start to not really want to go to work on [00:15:00] Monday, you start to get you're like really tired when you get home because you're just doing a lot of work that just drains your energy versus gives you energy, right?

And I think we've been in those different settings. It's just affects everything else as far as relationships and your right, your desire to wanna go exercise and so I totally I totally get that. And I think for you too, I've, what I've. In-network, like really good in-network pelvic floor PTs, they seem to be harder to find for reason.

And there's not as many, right? No. So did you feel more overwhelmed because like you're one of the few that was doing that, in, in Virginia you, your caseload was really high. No, it

Kelly: was just the time because we still have the same amount of patients. But yeah, I couldn't they didn't understand that AIDS don't know how to treat pelvic health, so these aids, you can't, just like they are used to doing exercises, I can't, I didn't even have time to train them on how to down train the nervous system.

They have no clue. Pelvic health is such a more encompassing, collaborative approach and to have that in any in network place, I just don't even think should even be allowed because it is. Pelvic [00:16:00] health is such a multifaceted approach, and if you don't approach it that way and just approach it from a muscular skeletal standpoint, then you have missed the boat.

And I really think you cannot treat that at all in an in PA or in an in-network setting. Doesn't work. How did

Danny: you get into pelvic health in the first place? Like why? Why was that the niche that you decided on or what drew you to that? To be

Kelly: honest, no one was doing it and I saw that there was a need and I was like, I'm gonna jump on board.

And so I started when I was in

Atlanta.

Danny: I had, I literally, this was in the Army by the way, I, when we were in school. And everybody there is like sports med org. There, there's no other reason to really go into the Army besides, you're gonna see that population. And, but one of our instructors, she was a pelvic health pt, and she was like, look, She's if you guys want job security, pelvic health is the way to go.

And we were like, why? She's there's way more vaginas than there are pelvic health PTs. You're outnumbered. And this is like a full, this is like a colonel telling us this. We were all laughing, but she was dead. She was spot on. And I do think it's one of the niches that does seem to be the most I wouldn't [00:17:00] say the most, but one of the most validated in the cash model.

Because of the lack of people, lack of really good people and the time it really takes to do it correctly. For you, okay ortho, pelvic, you get this sucker started at the beginning of Covid. How were the first couple months of the practice going for you? So

Kelly: I had all the time in the world now, I had went from no time to now all the time in the world.

And I realized the best thing when you have all the time in the world is to think that's the number one gift that you can actually have. And I didn't realize that until now, later. So within one month, I had, by the way, guys, I'm not, I wasn't rich. I had $800 in my bank account and I needed 4K to actually survive and pay.

We just bought a house like two months ahead before this. So I was like, crap, how am I gonna make this work? Within one month, I made the exact same income that I made in my outpatient orthopedic job that I may now currently, even though I had zero patients on my schedule. I was standing at trail heads in no booth, nothing yelling at people.

Come over. I'll do a free movement assessment in this parking lot right here. [00:18:00] I would be like, Hey, I'll treat you for free. Just leave me a Google review. Hey anyone that was willing to talk to me, I wanted to hang out with them and talk to them and treat them, and then I wanted to show them the experience so that they understood the value that I was providing so that they could continue to be in my world and I could build up my case.

Danny: Yeah, you're I got a question for you. If you back it up, look, it seems like the overarching theme here is you just hustle, right? So you, were you selling shit as a little kid? Were you just like selling candy and stuff? What this is, so you didn't do that at all. This just all of a sudden clicked one day and you're like, you know what?

I'm just start, go to these hotels and try to work on, like people in the movie industry,

Kelly: The reason why Danny is, cuz there was a need. So I came out with $200,000 in student loan debt. Yeah. I remember when we came out guys, we only made 62 K. Okay. So I had, I think I was paying two k of loans.

Every single month. So I remember a paycheck and a half was actually going to my loans. I had $500 a month to live on. [00:19:00] So it was like at a necessity that I had to hustle and had to have four different jobs because I needed money to actually survive. And that's the overarching theme today, if that's not the case.

But it, it was the case for Oh, for a long time.

Danny: Yes. Yeah. There's a huge discrepancy between. The loans that people take on in our profession to, to get the, degree and what they can make being employed by somebody else. It's really, I looked up the numbers. I think it was like $142,000 on averages student debt coming out, and the average PT is gonna make somewhere around like $80,000 across the country.

That's including all niches as well. So that could be at home health, it's, hospital work sniff where you're gonna make a lot more money. But the ortho, outpatient where a lot of people go. It's typically significantly less than that, and the volume is really high. So it's almost it's not physician on the other hand, they come out about, a little over $200,000 in debt.

But on average the general practitioner's gonna make about $200,000. So it's essentially like equivalent to their loans. We're a third, essentially to half of what we, we pay to get the degree. For you, Obviously that's a [00:20:00] huge burden and when you went out on your own, like that's, that doesn't go away, right?

So what were the things were, was it more the money or was it like failing and having to go get a job again? What were you a little more freaked out with?

Kelly: I was freaked out that I was gonna have to live in a tent.

Danny: Yeah. I really was. Be a nice tent, like a canvas tent, like a

Kelly: No, I was gonna be like the Portland people.

Remember I lived in Portland, so I know how they roll. So I was like, cool we're gonna be the Portland people. And my husband was just like, you are completely nuts. You're gonna throw all this off. And yeah, no one really believed me except for my mom. And I said, watch me like I'm gonna.

And so going after that to the first month, I made exactly what I made in my outpatient. I replaced my income and then the next quarter I made 20 K all of third quarter. And then that fourth quarter I made 30 K all that fourth quarter. And so I was really getting up there and I was actually, it was just still me.

I should have hired a lot sooner than I did. And I really was like, oh man, I'm making a lot of money right now. And,[00:21:00] just saving it. Cause I was just working. I was seeing at max, my highest point I got to was I was seeing 50 patients myself, cash, pelvic health model by myself for months and months, which I did not per week.

Recommend per week? Yeah.

Danny: Per, yeah. That, that, that's a lot like, that's, yeah. Most people, to give people perspective that made it don't understand like what you average, in a cash model like that. Usually if you're seeing like 25 to 30 a week and running the business, you're busy. That's basically twice.

And we have some people that do that as well. And usually it's funny, it's like they, they sound similar to you as well. It's dude, I'm just gonna stack all this cash because I just. It's working now and maybe it's gonna stop. There's like almost probably like a little bit of a fear of oh, I gotta take this while I got the opportunity.

And then they're just grinding. They're just, they're doing that now. For you to grow past yourself, like this is where it was fun to get a chance to work with you in the Mastermind for a year and just see where you were at. And you had a lot of shit going on and you had a lot of people that in a short period of time, you're able to bring on, which is pretty cool to see.

For you, what was the hiring process like? Because it wasn't, You [00:22:00] eased into it. You really got in. You hired people quickly.

Kelly: Yeah. So it was super scary that summer one when you, hi. Especially that first one. So I actually, cause I didn't know whether or not I should hire a PT or an admin first.

I went with an admin. But literally at that same time, I hired pretty much a PT like a week later. So I hired one of my patients. She was my patient for a while, so she. She got everything. She understood like the practice, which was, I would say, the best recommendation that you can do if you're, hi, if you're thinking about hiring bring on, a patient of yours as an admin.

Yeah. And then I hired a PT within two months that PT left cuz she got engaged and left me. Yeah. So that p all that time and effort that I thought I was doing amazing. That went out the drain. I got caught with my pants down. I didn't have a backup pt. I'm still at 50 plus now a week. And I got, I was back in the same situation I was my energy was so drained because I just spent so much time training this pt.

Yeah. Now I'm at balo, these [00:23:00] patients, and now Im like, crap, I gotta hire. So who am I gonna? So I put out ads and ads, and this can be hard. This is a bottleneck for the pelvic health world, is trying to find a legit pelvic health pt, and if not, how much training. Now I've ha I had all my training and everything recorded.

I had them listen to it. Two weeks before even coming onto the job. So that helps. Just fyi, for anyone out there that's listening and they would review all my cases, everything was recorded, so that's a positive. But as you guys know, pelvic health, physical therapists we deal with intimate parts, with that, there does take a lot of training and for us as pelvic health PTs, more so than I think orthopedics, our words and our connecting the dots, like I said, you have to treat it from a multifaceted approach really is I think what makes us stand apart than a lot of other people or a lot of other clinics.

Is because we have an hour with our patients that we can bring in a sex psychologist, a [00:24:00] natural path, a guided imagery specialist, a acupuncturist. We build the team for the patients and then have we are basically the primary cares. And then, Connect all the dots so that the patient gets the best results the fastest.

Yeah. And that takes time for a new therapist to understand, especially if they're coming from in an insurance based model or even a new grad because they're not teaching this stuff in school. And I can make videos on this all day. But every single person is different when they come in that door. So I think that's huge.

So then I hired on a, I hired on one pt and then three months later I hired on another pt. And then I had another admin come on. So now I have a clinical manager, admin three PTs, including myself, and I'm literally about to hire my fourth this week.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. It's, the turnover will crush you.

I think people They don't they don't really know what that's like until it's not just the time it's the, it's emotionally draining. Yes. [00:25:00] If you spent two months working with somebody, you just barely got them to where they were like efficient doing things the right way, and then all of a sudden now you gotta start over.

And that's really hard. And I think this is the thing that, people can hear your, success story and the things that you're, like, where you guys are at now and all the positives of it. What you gotta also keep in mind is there's it's an absolute roller coaster of, what you've gone through before starting the business and starting the business.

And that's like just the way it is for everybody. It seems I don't know anybody. It was like, yeah, I just, it was easy for me. I, everything just worked out. Like it doesn't, you never hear that, so I think it's important to have that in perspective, like entrepre. It's hard on you.

It's hard on your physical health, your mental health and for you, what part of the journey seems like it's been the most challenging for you is, has it been like the skill acquisition and the hiring and all these things? Or is it more of like management of work-life balance, if that's even a real thing and exists?

Like what's been the most challenging thing for you as far as starting your business goes?

Kelly: I think the point that I felt [00:26:00] most exhausted was when I was seeing the 50 patients a week. Yeah. I would say that. I would say after that and I realized that I should have hired sooner. Then it's starting to get easier, but it switches, so there's waves, and I tell people this a lot, that there's waves, like when you hire someone now the new wave that's really.

Is actually trying to then manage them and pull yourself out. And that alone can be tricky. My ego was not into it, but some people's egos are into it. Hey, this is me. I pulled out super que super quickly, like it was the quickest I probably anyone's ever pulled out of their clinic. And what I mean by that is now I pulled back and I don't treat patients.

I, that was pretty, actually easy for me. But I think just managing people in general and that's why I moved my admin to clinical manager because she's better at managing people than I am. I'm a leader. I'm not alin, I don't like to manage people. It's just not my, it's not my jam.

Danny: Yeah.

I think that's the, that is part of the equation, right? Like when you go from [00:27:00] doing everything, first of all, we can talk about scaling past yourself and how that goes, but getting past your own clinical reputation oftentimes can be a huge hurdle for people, right?

It's I gotta see Kelly. I gotta see Kelly. So getting past that, but also know. One of the best parts of a business is you get to do the shit you like to do and hire the rest of the stuff out as much as possible. There may be certain things you have to do that maybe you're not super, super excited about, but yeah, that's one of the best parts is if you don't like it, somebody else probably likes it a lot more than new ends better at it, you can just hire them.

As far as getting past yourself, like what hurdles did you see with that? Cause I think this is actually one of the big, like most challenging stages that actually stops people from going. Themself. They get frustrated with people that don't want to see whoever they hired.

Cause they just built their own reputation, or worst case scenario, they probably named the practice after themself. So now it's I gotta see the person whose name on there, and that's even really even harder to get past. So anyway how was that transition for you?

Kelly: Yeah, so for me, luckily I had Molly, my clinical manager.

She knew where I was coming from. She knew that it was really. Apparent [00:28:00] that if I pulled out that I could actually help the company grow more. And so she was aligning with my values. So she really watched my back and was like, look, you're as of this date, we're not take, we're not scheduling any more p people on your schedule and it's going to this person.

And so she really drew that boundary and I stuck to that boundary. And we just said this is it. So when people would call and sometimes they still do. Today, it's a lot less because we do have actually a lot of physicians that I've actually worked with in the area that refer directly to me. And so we actually have phone scripts for this.

Hi, I was referred to Kelly Hooey, blah, blah, blah. And then they have a whole phone script of what to say and how to get past that hurdle because potentially patients just come in and wanna see this one person. But we really have done a, an amazing job, I have to say because we've coached the team on how to answer these questions ahead of time and they nail it.

Yeah it's been good.

Danny: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about the physician relationships. I think that's an area that. Is pretty challenging for cash practices to, to be able to [00:29:00] build those. Especially oftentimes also physician groups may just be very incentivized not to send outside of their own system because of compensation to themself or it's tracked by the hospital system.

There's a lot of different factors with that. So tell me a little bit about how, you went about developing relationships with providers and which ones also do you feel like you have the most success with? In the women's health in a kinda specific,

Kelly: Yeah, so we're known for treating pelvic floor and hips, so that's like our jam.

So we actually do have a lot of hip ortho docs that send to us. I was fortunate enough, I think the positive is when I did work for that outpatient orthopedic place, it was physician owned. So I did get to know a lot of the doctors and they started to see that I was the premiere person to send their hip patients to and for pelvic health tailbone issues because again, I was the only one at a hundred plus therapists that treated those issues.

So I really got in front of these doctors and I guess left a mark. That was really helpful. And then on top of it, what I recommend when going to physicians not to just say, hi, it's me. Here's my stuff. Take it. [00:30:00] No. We call, what we do is we actually call the clinical we call the clinical manager.

Set up a meeting with them, we bring it in our pelvic model and we educate them because I don't know if anyone knows this, but no OB or g y n, they have no formal training in pelvic floor physical therapy. So it's a huge opportunity for us pelvic health PTs to actually bring our pelvic floor model, educate them on the 20.

Something, muscles of the pelvic floor and get them to understand exactly what we can do and how we can help. They don't know that we can work the C-section scars. They don't know how to truly evaluate a pelvic floor, then make it dynamic, especially at that six week mark. It's such a BS number. So I see patients and we still see patients at three weeks.

We have to get these patients going, get their abdominals to activate and get them back in action. That's what they want. So we can do so much. Every single postpartum mom should be seen by a pelvic health physical therapist at three weeks, and we really bring that [00:31:00] education to them. We also bring flyers.

So we make flyers, how to poop better and avoid hemorrhoids, right? So we tell them with our logo on the top of it, Hey, this is from ortho pelvic. Hand it out to every single one of your patients so you don't have to do the education. We provide the physician's value. We teach them how to check for prolapses.

We teach teach them how to like I said, work a C-section scar or how to do cupping over that. And then that's added value that they can start adding to their patients while referring to us. So we are the premier go-to people in this community because we do so much education to all these providers around

Danny: here.

Yeah. To your point I've actually worked with a couple OB docs that literally like, Think that pelvic floor stuff is just not necessary. And I'm like, what are you talking about? They haven't had any training but granted they're older, they've been out of practice for significantly longer. Have you noticed a difference between like younger physicians, like newer out of practice and older ones in [00:32:00] terms of being more progressive and willing to go that direction?

No.

Kelly: The direction. Potentially, but there's so much unknown, even these new people that are coming out practicing, like I actually just worked with an np. She's Kelly, I didn't know that all the males are diagnosed with chronic prostitis. And I'm like, really? No. It's actually a tight pelvic floor.

And she's oh, I've just been referring them to urology. I'm like, no, because in med school they just don't learn this stuff. And we really are the premium market for it. We know really how to truly get patients.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah, that's huge. That's great advice I think for anybody that, not just in the women's health space, but just in general with physician relationships.

And I think that the cool thing that happens as well is as your practice gets bigger and you're doing this with your, with the people that really are the ecosystem for your for your avatar, for your niche, Is you become a gateway and really, you're end up quarterbacking people's health and wellness and referring them to the right people at the right time.

And that actually becomes incredibly valuable to the [00:33:00] other providers because instead of you just, it's not a one way relationship. It's really very symbiotic. And so if you are sending people their way and making them look really good, they're much more likely to do the same, with you and that.

But that's, that takes some time cuz you have to definitely build your reputation and size of your practice up to where it even really makes a dent in who they're seeing. But, for you a, as far as. Inbound, new patient volume goes, what percent is coming from physicians, what percent is coming from direct kind of consumer to your practice, sort of marketing efforts.

Kelly: Yeah. So our number one is word of mouth month after month. That was, we're analyzing this. And then our second is physician. And then our third is website, and then our fourth is ig. We get a lot of fair amount of people from ig. So we have about 45 new, on average, 45 new evals coming into our clinic a

Danny: month.

Yeah, that's interesting. The word of mouth stuff, people, they'll bring that up. They're like, oh, word of mouth number one. And then I think it's like that actually for a lot of businesses it's just how predictable is that. So if you guys have things in place Yeah. [00:34:00] Predict that you're really Yeah.

That so like how do you facilitate that? Do you guys have certain things you've found like, man, if we do these certain things, like we're much more likely to get a, a client, refer us a client. Cause those are definitely the best people.

Kelly: No. We have not, to be honest, we have not done that.

We just, honestly, what we do is believe in just serving. And honestly, I believe if you just keep putting out like good vibes to every single person and just giving them value. So every single person that calls our clinic, whether or not they book with us or not, they will actually get a whole free.

That's 150 bucks on their actual problem. And we give very valid answers in there on how to solve their problem. And so we really do give people what they want no matter if they're paying us or not. And I really believe that is why we've been successful, because we just help whoever, whenever, wherever.

And through our Instagram as well. We give so much free value through that. So if they can't, come in then let us send you some guides and look at our, [00:35:00] I. Yeah, it's

Danny: The Chipotle approach, right? The Chipotle did not market it when they first opened. They had a line around the door cuz their food was just better than everybody else's, right?

So it's I think that when we get a chance to talk to people, and this is one of the key things we wanna know, is like how many word of mouth referrals are you getting? Cuz it's a sign of how good is your product, your service? Are you like really going above and beyond for people? And when we see it's very low, the first place we have to look.

And this sometimes hurts if you tell some people, they're like You need to make it better. You need to be better at what you're doing. And they're like, what? It's like they're not sending people your way. That's a sign that something is off. And for you guys, obviously that's a big part of what you're doing.

So that's huge. A as far as going forward, I'm interested cuz you've shifted gears now, you've, you're now you're like helping other, women's health practices. Get up and running and get their businesses optimized. So what was it about that made you wanna make the shift to that and and where, what are you doing in the space now?

If you can give us like a little info on what you're up to. Yeah.

Kelly: So what made me wanna switch gears. I know that coaching changed my life. Sorry, [00:36:00] my. I know it did. Like I went from, not having money at all to now being able to afford just to pay my loans, which is amazing. And just not to have to like worry about medical bills and stuff like that, which is amazing.

So just that alone is like such a huge life-changing thing and I never knew when I started my business that's actually what was gonna be about. And then as I started to get more and more into the business, it's. Wow. I can actually impact so much of my employee's life and help them out. So if they need something one of my employees, she's my face is breaking out.

So I sent her to go get a facial. One of, we just had a one of 'em is getting married, so I just hosted a massage. Spa party at my house just to be able to give back to my employees and even my patients. And it's honestly the best part about being successful is just that. And I never even knew that was gonna come.

So I know I'm going on a tangent, but that's what kind [00:37:00] of was like really cool about this whole business journey and how life changing it was for me. And once I saw that I was. Wow. Why has no one talked about this to this in school for us? Like, why haven't we learned anything? And I feel like I can help so many more people with the knowledge that I have of what I've been able to do and show so many other pelvic health PTs and OTs like how to do this.

And that's where my passion comes from. I love helping other per people see. What they never even knew existed. I never even knew this world existed. And it's just so amazing that we don't have to be like, oh, I can't spend that money. Or we don't have to be like, no, I'm just a PT and I can't afford that at all times.

And be like such like the low man on the totem pole at all times. And we work our butts off and really, we should be rewarded for that. We really should. And I want other people to see. Whatever life they want, whatever it is, you can do it. You just have to have the [00:38:00] tools and that's why hiring a coach is the best thing because that coach will accelerate you to the UMP degree if you listen to them and do the things.

And it's like life changing. Yeah,

Danny: I completely agree. I think people have to, everybody comes to a different, In a different way. With coaching, sometimes you have to go through a lot of pain to be like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and then get some help, other people, maybe they accelerated like you did, but I've never invested in, working with a group or a course or a coach to where, I didn't get something out of that was really positive and.

It's also based on how much you put in, the effort that you have. You can't just hire somebody and then all of a sudden everything works and you don't actually implement anything. But I think what you brought up was, is probably my favorite part of businesses like this. Two things.

Number one, yes, you can do whatever you want. I think there's, you hear people say that and they're like, That's something you tell like little kids and it's not a real thing, right? But yeah, I mean there's really no ceiling to how much money you wanna make or how much free time you want to have or how big of an organization you wanna have.

Depends what you want your life to look like. I [00:39:00] think the first thing is figure that out first and then let's, engineer what that's gonna take to get there. But the other thing is the people that you get a chance to lead is pretty cool. It's it. It's just hard to describe until somebody's been in that position.

Like we just went to our third staff members like third wedding of a staff member, and it's just so great to just be a part of their life, see what their family looks like. It's always so funny to be like, what does this guy's dad and mom look like? Oh, that's where he, that's he looks like his dad, or I always thought that was so interesting.

And it's just so fun to be a part of it and to give back to them and be able to like, create an environment that people want to work in and not a shitty environment that we for in many cases have been forced to be in for so long. So I think that's huge. And I love that you're, helping the community out.

And for you, like what's the plans with the business? Are you gonna, leave it the way it is? Are you gonna try to grow? Are you gonna autopilot it? What are you gonna do with the brick and motorcycle things? It sounds. You really want to go more the coaching, direction going forward.

Kelly: Yeah. So I'm just hiring this PT on, so that's exciting. So we are growing still. I really want us to accelerate [00:40:00] our growth this year. I have plans for that, so I can't wait to see that happen. I'm really excited for that. And then also because I've pulled out, I now have time, my time's freed up to do coaching.

So we've done. We've done already a cohort of two months. I've had people go through the program already for pelvic health business coaching and I wanna accelerate that. I want a year long program that I'm about to launch at the f at the start of the year. So I'm like taking on, the maximum I take is 10 people.

Cool. And doing it that way. So I'm

Danny: excited. Where can people kinda learn more about your practice and what you're doing on the coaching side if they're interested in getting a chance to work with you or maybe work with your pelvic health company locally?

Kelly: Yeah, so if you go to www.orthopelvicpt.com, you can find us on Instagram at Ortho Pelvic pt.

So that is for the like clinical. And then for the Pelvic health business side, it's called Pelvic Health Business [00:41:00] Grower. We have a Facebook group of already over a hundred or one, 1.1 K members that are Pelvic health PTs. Cool. And we just did a live webinar training that had over a hundred people on it for marketing.

So I put in free stuff in there all the time. So if you guys wanna join that, you can. And then also on Instagram at Pelvic Health. So that's

Danny: where you can find me. Cool. Kelly, this was great. Thanks so much for sharing your story. It's so cool to hear the background of like where you started and how, just how much you've hustled.

Like I think that's my biggest takeaway, and I hope that people will hear that too, because this isn't the easiest thing to do. It really isn't. And. Especially starting, like the amount of effort it takes to get started is exponential. And you really you were putting some effort in, put some time in grinding and just hustling and it's just cool to hear that, you bootstrapped all this to where you're at today.

Thanks for your time today. I know you got a lot of stuff going on and your time's probably the most valuable thing you have, so you know, it's absolutely, it means a lot to us and we really appreciate your time. So thanks for sharing the story.

Kelly: No, thank you so much for having [00:42:00] me and I appreciate all your help.

So thank. Yeah,

Danny: for sure. Shout to Georgia College of State University Doc Martino. Hope you're watching this now. We'll, maybe we'll see him at some point. But guys, thanks so much for listening. We really appreciate it. As always, we'll catch you next time.

Hey, Pete, entrepreneurs. We have big, exciting news, a new program that we just came out with that is our PT Biz part-time to full-time, five day challenge. Over the course of five days, we get you crystal clear on exactly how much money you need to replace by getting you a. Ultra clear on how much you're actually spending.

We get you crystal clear on the number of people you're getting to see, and the average visit rate you're going to need to have in order to replace your income to be able to go full-time. We go through three different strategies that you can take to go from part-time to full-time, and you can pick the one that's the best for you based on your current situation.

Then we share with you the sales and marketing systems that we use within our mastermind that you need to have as well. If you wanna go full-time in your [00:43:00] own practice. And then finally we help you create a. Page business plan. That's right. Not these 15 day business plans. You wanna take the Small Business Association, a one day business plan that's gonna help you get very clear on exactly what you need to do and when you're gonna do it to take action.

If you're interested and sign up for this challenges, totally free. Head to physical therapy biz.com/challenge. Get signed up there. Please enjoy. We put a lot of energy into this. It's totally free. It's something I think is gonna help you tremendously, as long as you're willing to do the work. If you're doing the work and you're.

Information put down and getting yourself ready to take action in a very organized way, you will have success, which is what we want. So head to physical therapy biz.com/challenge and get signed up today. Hey, real quick before you go, I just wanna say thank you so much for listening to this podcast, and I would love it if you got involved in the conversation.

So this is a one way channel. I'd love to hear back from you. I'd love to get you. Into the group that we have formed on Facebook. Our PT Entrepreneurs Facebook group has about 4,000 [00:44:00] clinicians in there that are literally changing the face of our profession. I'd love for you to join the conversation, get connected with other clinicians all over the country.

I do live trainings in there with Eve Gigi every single week, and we share resources that we don't share anywhere else outside that group.

So if you're serious about being a PT entrepreneur, a clinical rainmaker, head to that group. Get signed up. Go to facebook.com/groups/ptentrepreneur, or go to Facebook and just search for PT Entrepreneur. And we're gonna be the only group that pops up under that.