E534 | How To Be An Amazing Clinician Fast With Andy Chen

It has been a while since I have had the chance to sit down and have a conversation with a very smart person within our industry and today I was lucky enough to be joined by one of our Mastermind Members, Andy Chen!

Check out this resources if you plan to start your own physical therapy clinic!

Andy is really hitting his stride right now as a business owner along with his fiance, and we get to check in with him to see how things are going at his practice, Moment Physical Therapy & Performance, in New York City. Enjoy!

• Backstory on how I met Andy
• Andy's approach to solving problems
• Changing your perceptions

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] So one of the best ways to improve your customer experience, which we know will dramatically improve your business, is to have clear lines of communication with your clients. And that's something that can be really hard with these multiple channels between email and text. And what you really need is to centralize that in one place.

And that's something that we've been able to do as we switched over to PT everywhere within our client's accounts. We can actually message right back and forth with them. They can manage their home exercise plan within there, and it allows us to really compartmentalize the communication. That we have with those clients instead of losing an email in the inbox or missing a text and then you're, it's very hard to dig yourself outta that hole because they feel like you're not very responsive, with them.

And for us, it's made a really big difference. It helps make our staff more efficient. It helps us not miss things as much with the volume of people that we're working with. And it's a really smart way of really compartmentalizing your communication with your clients so it doesn't interfere with the rest of the channels.

You have communication with family and friends and things like that. So I think it'd be huge for your practice to centralize it the way we have. Head over to pt [00:01:00] everywhere.com. Check out what our friends you're doing over there. I think it's really cool and I think you really like it. So here's the question.

How do physical therapists like us who don't wanna see 30 patients a day, who don't wanna work home health and have real student loans create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about? This is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Mate and welcome to the PT Entrepreneur Podcast.

What's going on guys? Doc Danny here with the PT Entrepreneur Podcast and we are doing an interview today. It's been a while. We have a lot of stuff going on with PT Biz and haven't been scheduling a whole lot of these, but plan on doing a lot more because I just, I miss having interesting conversations with smart people and people that are really doing cool things in the industry.

And Andy Chen is somebody that we're chatting with today and I'm really excited to dig into what he's doing. I think that man, you know how the, in the minor leagues, they'll have the, this [00:02:00] is the player that everybody's you gotta watch out for this person. And they're like, in a double A that's how I feel about you right now.

You're just, you really are hitting your stride and it's been super cool to see with the different elements of your businesses you have going on and just visibility within profession. So anyway, I'll give you a quick background. Andy. He's an owner. He is a co-owner, I should say, of moment physical therapy and performance.

It's in New York City. He and his now fiance Christie started that, which is cool. Just got engaged. When was that?

Andy: Two Saturdays

Danny: ago. Two Saturdays ago. Awesome. So that's a, that's awesome. Huge obviously life event. She's great. And they started this practice relatively like new out of school, which is something I'm seeing more and more of and are having, really quick success associated with that.

So it's some, something I wanted to bring up and share with everybody and let them hear what you got going on as well as you have kinda unique approach to mentoring other other clinicians and quick backstory Annie and I actually, we met and had lunch at, so I was at C S M in Washington, DC me and Eve were there and we honestly were, [00:03:00] I think we went to one presentation for the rest of the time.

We worked on the business. Like we were probably in our hotel room for 80% of it building shit out. And luckily for us, we decided to go out one day and one of our mastermind members, Mike Yassen, he was like, yo, dude. You gotta grab lunch with me. And these two folks that are, they're students, they're awesome.

And we went and grabbed pizza and it was you and Christie and Mike and the two of us. And you were really well dressed. I remember that you had like super sharp suit on, you were presenting and you made everybody look bad and you were telling us about how you were slinging sneakers back in the day and all this stuff.

And I was like, what the hell is this? Who's this alien of a person? And it's just interesting to see where you are now and it's not surprising whatsoever, to be where you know where you are. Anyway, a cool full circle moment. So let me stop talking and, let you give us a quick background as to, where you come from and really how'd you get into this profession, over anything else?

Andy: Yeah. Appreciate it Danny. [00:04:00] And it's crazy to come back full circle again cuz I was listening to your podcast and even at that time I'm like, man, you can't leave. We're getting lunch together. And these two people that I think are like amazing people and you guys are, but you're only, these guys are just normal.

People are just like me. So it's cool to get to know you over the years. But little bit of background about me. Throughout high school, I'd like never really worked hard in school, never really applied myself. And I got into training senior year of high school cuz I was at a pool hall with a friend of mine and my friend Russell was like, Hey, I bet you 20 bucks that I can do twice the amount of pushups is you.

So we get down on the ground, I whip out like 15 pushups and I'm struggling. And Russell bangs out like 40 pushups. Damn. This guy just made me feel like less of a man so quickly. And he also took my money. But when we were in high school, we used to just bet on anything. Like we would look at like pigeons on, these electric lines.

Like I bet you five bucks that left pigeon's gonna fly out first. [00:05:00] Wow. We would just bet on random things. But fast forward senior year I'm like, I can't let that happen again. I'm gonna start working out. So the wrestling coach at the high school I was a part of ran a body building show. At the end of the year, I told all my friends, I'm gonna enter that body building show, get in the best shape of my life.

So I bugged up to 1 45, and at that time I was one 15 and currently right now I walk around at one 60. I stepped on stage at 1 35, did a body building show. My performance, my posing song was Mack Miller. Just ridiculous stuff. Nice. After that I fell in love with training movements. A lot of body building for sure.

But then as I got into college, got into a little bit more power lifting and I had a really bad injury at a trampoline park. We had a social event with another authority, and you're just bouncing around acting like goofballs. I wake up the next day and I couldn't move upper back was so locked up, lower back pain.[00:06:00]

Numbness and tingling going down both arms. More on the right side. Damn I couldn't even unr a bar without pain. So I went to go see a physical therapy clinic near Buffalo where I was going to school, and I worked with this physical therapist, Allie. And Allie, if you're listening to this, I'm not sure if you would be, but you changed my life.

Shout out to Allie. Shout out to Allie. But I was working with Allie and first she took the time to listen to me really break down what was going on, gave me things I can manage and do myself, and was very present with me during the session. But what really changed everything was after every subsequent week as I was getting better and returning to the things I wanted to do, I can see allie's face light up.

And I remember when I was getting close to discharge and I was telling Allie listen, I'm back to squatting, benching, and doing all these things. She was so genuinely happy for me. And I would never forget that because I looked at her and I [00:07:00] just told myself like, I wanna know what that feels like.

And that's when I knew I had to be a physical therapist. The thing that sucked was I graduated and my GPA was like a 2.6.

Danny: Yeah. I feel like I don't know too many careers where there is as much personal satisfaction associated with the work than, what we do. I'm sure there's plenty of people that are, I'm sure there's a C p A sitting out there, and when they do that tax return, they're just like, damn, this is awesome.

They found their thing and that's what they really love. But the idea that, like you it's a job, which is cool, and it's a pretty good job, but it's you're, it's meaningful in a lot of other ways, especially like. I like that person. It's meaningful as they get back at things that they would like to do.

But as somebody that very, I'm probably, I'm very similar to you in probably in this respect, where like I get a lot out of that. Like I fucking love it. And then when they don't do well I'm difficult to be around like, cuz I'm, same thing. I'm like constantly thinking about it. And it's somewhat of an obsession that I would [00:08:00] have.

And I think that's also what leads people to. Want to get out of most of the traditional clinical environments. I see people like yourself and myself, and the common denominator, it's not necessarily money, it's not necessarily the income side of the business, it's that you are trying so hard to develop this skillset that it's like your art.

It's the thing that you want to be the best in the world at. And when you're shoved into a clinic with people that maybe don't wanna get better, or so many people that don't even have the time to have a conversation with them about, like something they need to really have a conversation about, it's frustrating.

And you can only have somebody that really wants to be world class be in a setting like that for so long, so it's cool to hear that you saw that from somebody else, and now it's I'm assuming, you feel the same way, right? You light up whenever somebody gets a big change.

Andy: Yeah. There's, and you probably feel this sometimes too, but like when you aren't surrounded by like a male physical therapy clinic and you don't see that day to day, you forget how wonderful what the service you provide is Yep. Meaning I went to visit an old [00:09:00] clinic that I used to work for being eight, four, like a month and a half ago.

And I just sat down and I was just waiting to talk to some of the PTs that I knew. Yeah. And I was just observing and I was just like, man, how do people get better here? It's kinda crazy. Yeah. So having, the satisfaction of working with people in that one-on-one basis and providing care that they actually need, we take that for granted, especially being in practice for yourself.

It's, for us, it's only been a year, but I've already forgotten what it's like to be in those kind of clinics. Yeah. And that they exist in such a big

Danny: number the vast majority, it's not even close actually. We're a tiny fraction of the profession.

And I think in some ways, I don't think it says anything necessarily about the profession. I think it's just people in general. I think that a lot of people Their job is their job and they have shit they like to do outside of it, and they want to go home and they want to play video games or coach their kids' soccer team or I don't know, go to a game and be like super into some club associated with that.

And they have hobbies that they're more interested in [00:10:00] than their actual profession, which probably is a healthy thing. And I think, for us it, it's not really there. There's a lot of overlap between what we get enjoyment out of and what we do for our profession and what we wanna spend our time on, independent of.

Whether it in, affects compensation in any way. It's just like the thing that we're fascinated with. So I don't know, maybe we're the weird ones. I think about this sometimes it seems so nice just to be able to be like, man, this is a great job and I like fantasy football. Hell of a lot.

And I just wanna do that. And that doesn't exist for the people that we work with and yourself. Cause you, it, it sounds like you're constantly trying to. Learn and progress and grow. Tell me if I'm wrong, with that assumption.

Andy: No, I, there's always I create a little mini like, syllabus for myself every quarter.

What am I trying to learn? What problems do I need to solve right now? How am I gonna learn that? Whether it's a book, whether it's a course, and if I know something's gonna provide me value, usually that price won't scare [00:11:00] me off. Meaning if a book's under a hundred bucks, I don't even bat twice.

Cause I know there's a chance that my life will change. Sure. So with books, it's like I just buy a shit ton of books and we've got like a 700 square foot apartment and there's probably like 400 bucks in there. Yeah. And with courses it, with courses, it's the same thing. It's man, I need to know how to help this person in front of me, or I need to learn how to help myself when it comes to the business, who's doing something that I can't do.

But share similar values that I have that I can learn from, and I'm just gonna seek that out. Yeah. And I find that if I don't wanna learn anymore, I probably don't belong in a profession

Danny: that's, I would agree with that. And I it may not be like this. This happened with me where I started to really progress what I was interested in learning more towards the business side of what we had started, mainly because I had to.

Like that didn't have any business mentorship, there wasn't anything out there at the time. I'm [00:12:00] trying to piece together shit from, E-Myth and Harvard Business Review and just joining like traditional business groups and trying to figure out what the hell to do, and there really wasn't anything.

So I turned my attention to that and I realized I really liked it and I was really like, fascinated with it in the same way when I was learning about the human body and movement and all the stuff that I was just like, so geeking out on that my attention started to turn and for me it's, it was a slow death by a thousand paper cuts where I started to become less and less of a good clinician and more and more of a good business owner and realizing that I couldn't necessarily be great at both.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not smart enough, but I just couldn't do it, so I think it's normal to, to change what you're interested in and you have a lot of stuff that you're interested in, and we can dig into some of the stuff that you're doing. Yeah, for now, like you really love the clinical side of things, and it seems to be you're turning more towards the mentorship of other clinicians as well as a way to still be involved in the profession and help move it forward.

So maybe that's where, your next interest is gonna be, and that's the area you're gonna obsess over until something else, eventually. Tell me a little bit about that. Because to get to the point where you feel like you [00:13:00] can mentor other people, you have to like really hone in your own frameworks and your own, way of working with somebody in a very logical way.

It can't be, this is what I usually do with back pain, right? It's this is why, here's the research that supports it, and here's case studies. This is what we do. If this happens, or this happens, this is how we talk to people. It's very complex. So h how long would you say it took you to get to the point where you actually felt competent to be able to take another clinician and explain to them what you're doing?

Andy: Yeah, so I guess we can start with the reason I honestly created it last August, it's been a almost a full year now under doing the clinical rainmaker and doing stuff like that with you guys. And it changed my life. So within two months of quitting my full-time job, sorry, from scratch, I was able to build a full caseload.

Wow. Man, this is insane. I was like, I don't know how I got here, but I realized a lot of it was just word of mouth. Yeah. People, Hey, I saw you started your own business. I know someone that you know can use your help. Can I connect you guys through text or [00:14:00] email? And it just happened so quickly.

And then by the end of December, I was already filling up Christie's. So going into near the end of q4, I was like, I really need to start a mentorship cause. We're gonna need to hire somebody. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to pick somebody without understanding what their skillset is or where they're coming from.

And there's no better way to do that than create a mentorship. Yeah. And not teach your framework, but also get to know what other people, how other people treat as well. And just start to build a community. So the goal with the mentorship was like, I'm gonna try to hire out of this mentorship.

And, I think it's useful because for us, this is how we operate our business. This is the framework that we use to help build this caseload as quickly as we did. Because a lot of what we did was just make an impact within our community. And we've done that for the, within our, we've been now a physical therapist for three years.

So I wanted to be able to teach that to other [00:15:00] people. I just made a post. I was like, Hey, listen, I'm gonna be starting a mentorship. This is the framework that I used to get myself busy and also fill up Chrissy's schedule within a couple of months. I'm gonna teach you how we do what we do inside and out every day in and day out in the clinic.

If you're interested, shoot me an email and we got an email list going. Had no idea how to do email marketing. Yeah. But we've launched the mentorship in mid-December and I'm, we're driving to Christie's parents place in Michigan cuz we're going there for the holidays. And I remember launching that morning and we sold out in a day and a half and I was just like, look, I looked at Christie and I'm like, I have to build a mentorship now.

Yeah. Cause I didn't have anything. I just had a structure. So during that 10 hour drive to Michigan back and forth, I built the PowerPoints, I built the outline. And as I was going through creating it, I started realizing there's a lot of fillers that I just have in my own [00:16:00] framework. I'm like, why do I even do this?

I can't even scale this to something. Let's take that out. Let's add this, let's piece this together. Let's combine this. How do I know when someone's prepared to do this? How do I know when someone's ready to go back to this? And I started asking myself questions. Then I have to be really honest with what I knew.

And honestly, that whole process has made me way better a clinician because I've taken out all the fluff. But I also think it made me better at sales. Cause now I can communicate what I'm doing to people. Yeah. Way easier than I did

Danny: before. Definitely. I feel like having, teaching on the ConEd side made me a better clinician, hands down, no doubt.

Because in order to explain like one to many and justify what you're doing and be able to make that as simplified as possible for them to understand. In a couple days, which was basically what we were doing is that it just takes such a long time to get to the point where you can do that. And then if you're one-on-one with somebody, it's almost unfair because you have, so it's such an easier conversation and [00:17:00] communication process than if there's 50 people that are there and are ha and have questions.

And for you, going through that and then realizing and documenting what you're doing, that is actually a very tedious thing to do, which is one of the reasons why nobody really does it. And even if you look at the things that you might be doing that are the soft skills and not the hard skills, that probably is.

Just as important as whether somebody is accurately diagnosing or whatever it might be. Because if you do the soft skills right, they are, they're more forgiving with the process. If it's not tracking as fast as they expected it should or that you expect that it should. And they're gonna give you the time to really see that through.

Cause they trust you. And most people skip that and they just think, oh, this randomized control trial says this and this, and I gotta do this. And they completely miss the fact that they haven't connected with another human being. So that's something that's challenging to teach.

How do you view that, how do you view the emotional intelligence side, the actual connection side, and how do you systemize that for people [00:18:00] that are completely different communicators? In some ways

Andy: I simplified in a sense that I'm like, Hey, during a discovery call, don't talk.

Anything business, medical, health related for five minutes during your initial consultation? Shoot the shit five to 10 minutes. Definitely before you even dive into anything related to what the real problem is, just get to know the person better. Because the beauty of that is like when you know someone and you know what their hobbies are, then when you start to educate them, you can take their hobbies and create these metaphors for them to get them to better understand pain, to get them to better understand things like workload.

I worked with the DJ and I was like, Hey listen, you know when you're, when the crowd's bumping and they're really into it, then you could turn things up, but you can't keep turning it up cause the crowd's gonna get tired. You have to turn things down, let the metal aisle again, then another 15, 20 minutes, turn it back up.

It's like training. You can't train hard every single day cause you never give yourself time to [00:19:00] recover. You gotta turn it back down. Yeah. And turn it back up. And you have to see what your body's giving you. Just like you have to see what the crowd's giving you. So being able to learn more about the other person in front of you helps you build connection because now that person's wow, he took what I know and explained what he's, what he's an expert in, and explain it in a way that it's through my own lens.

And I think when you do these things, like subconsciously, you start to build a lot more

Danny: trust. Yeah. Yeah. And for you, objectively, if we're looking at a measure of how well you're connecting with people and your customer experience for me, the biggest variable is how many referrals are you getting from people that you're seeing?

And this is a, something that we have great clinicians that we get a chance to work with in our different, Rainmaker and mastermind programs, just amazing clinicians. And what's funny is sometimes the best clinicians on paper and with their experience, they miss some of the customer experience side of [00:20:00] things and they're getting good outcomes.

They're just not getting. People that they work with to send other people their way, which is in my in my experience is a yellow flag. I'm like, whoa, what are you doing? Like why is that not snowballing? And for you, that's exactly what happened. And for me, that's what happened too. Cause I didn't know shit about business.

I just was like treating people the way that I thought they needed to be worked with and just going a lot further than other clinicians were actually doing. So what do you feel like the difference is for you guys with moment that you're doing and that you're engineering into what your practice does that really drives the customer experience side of things that is, is really a viral way of getting them to refer more people your way?

Andy: Oh, I would say there's a couple of things, but one of the things that really stands out is we reframe things a lot. Because it's usually a new experience for a lot of people coming in to see, someone that's out of network or one-on-one. And we try to make sure there's complete transparency with what the payment itself looks like prior coming in.

We try to reframe what the session [00:21:00] is gonna look like cuz people are like, wow, we're gonna spend a whole hour together. What's that gonna look like? Yeah. Now we're gonna listen to your story. We'll chat a little bit. We'll go through some movements. We'll try to find things that can help change areas that were previously provocative.

At the end we'll sit down and we'll talk about how those things connect to your story. And then after the session, if there's anything else you want me to look at, we'll take a look at that. And after the session, don't feel like you've gotta memorize everything or take videos. I'll have the videos recorded for you and I'm gonna send you an email documenting and telling you exactly what's going on, how we're gonna address it, and your program.

So I think when we do something like that, then we deliver on that. Meaning after every session, after the first session, there's a nice email we write. That tells 'em exactly what we found how it relates to the story, how we're gonna address it, what the program is. And I even have a little copy and paste thing where it's like a little framework to make decisions.

Cuz I find most people, they're always terrified of Hey, I'm, do I know, [00:22:00] how do I know this is gonna do more harm than good? Yeah. Should I be doing my exercises or should I wait if I'm in pain? So we have these commonly asked questions that I would typically plug into the email and then I send the email.

I've had clients message me or I'll speak to the clients. The week after this is the most detailed email I've ever seen. I showed it to all my boys. I was hanging out with my boys. I'm like, dude, this guy knows what he's doing. Yeah. And seeing an email like that I think has helped us gone a little bit more viral because that's, there's those people that show the emails to their friends and show them like their program.

And we get referrals all the time. Cause oh yeah, Greg, show me your the email, the program that he's doing. And I've never seen a physical therapist de deliver that before. Yeah,

Danny: it's awesome. It's time consuming. I think that's why people skip that step because it has to be individualized, that person.

And you can definitely systemize the process a little bit. But you know it, when I started doing that too, it was [00:23:00] because the world that I came from, I could see somebody once every three to four weeks. That was it. Cuz we had such a backlog of soldiers whenever I was in the army that it's you got one fucking email from me and it better work, otherwise we're gonna waste a month.

So it had to be super detailed, very clear. And for me, when they left the office, it was always when you go home and you explain what's going on to your significant other. Imagine I'm them. Tell me what's up. And if they couldn't tell me what I, what was actually going on and what they needed to do next, they didn't leave until we were very clear.

So I think the clarification of what's going on and then the follow up in an email like that, like there's a difference between an email somebody gets and it's just okay, cool. Read that trash. And then they save that shit. Like they'll save it forever, they'll put it, they'll create a folder for it.

Cause it's such a helpful thing. And it's so interesting because like you're just overdelivering on expectations of, frankly, a very poor medical system that is confusing and typically doesn't create any clarity whatsoever. It seems like [00:24:00] for you the clarity of what's going on and then the reinforcement of that at the, at visit one is a huge part of what you're trying to accomplish, when somebody comes to see you.

Andy: Yeah, there's, and frankly I do think for me it's the most efficient way to get somebody better. Yeah, and it becomes part of a sales process, right? Because you're no longer just getting a service. You're learning a skill that you can use for the rest of your life, and you're getting something tangible.

You can reference these emails years and years down that line. Totally. And I have clients that do, it's oh, I had a little back flare up a year after seeing you, but I just looked at our email and it's amazing. Like I was able to just figure out where I can start and I just built myself back up.

And there's no better feeling than knowing that someone is able to take care of themselves opposed to seeing you. They don't have to be product of the healthcare system. They can just keep continuing to live life. I

Danny: think what you're describing. Is the difference between a physical therapist, and I bring this up all the time it's a human body consultant.

That's exactly [00:25:00] what I turned into. Didn't know it until someone told me that one day. And it's just you're, cuz you're talking to them and you're educating them on what's going on with the assumption that, hey, this might come back. And in even preframing that, right? Dude, you've had back pain for three years.

The likelihood that this, we can get this better, is strong, but the likelihood it comes back is even stronger. Like it's probably gonna happen. So this is gonna be the difference between you having a little bit of pain for a couple days and a few months. So you're gonna know what to do. You're gonna know exactly what to do within the first 24 hours and like you're educating them and teaching them a life skill.

And then this is where sales becomes really easy, right? It's not a, I'm gonna put you on a bike for 15 minutes and then take you through some TheraBand exercises. It's listen, I'm teaching you how to take care of your body for the long haul and guess what, you can teach your wife how to do this or your brother or whatever.

And so what's the compounding effect of that? It's massive, right? So it, I feel like the education component is it's passed over two months. Cause everybody wants to do their hands their, whatever their hands-on trick is or whatever, the thing is that they went to school or some kind course for to learn that it's specialized and works, but it's just [00:26:00] it, you need the trust and you need the clarity for someone to believe that's gonna do shit to them.

Because if you're just like, I'm gonna stick some needles in your shoulder that cool, they're probably like, what the hell's that gonna do? But if they really believe what you're doing, they're not gonna care. You could, they're gonna be like, I'm gonna scratch your back for 15 minutes and this is gonna help.

And they're like, cool, let's go. Let's do it. So I think that's, I think it's really overlooked. What's the second thing you guys said? You said there were two primary ones. What's the second one you feel like really is establishes the customer experience?

Andy: The, I was, it's going with that, but I think the follow up.

Yeah, I don't think you have to be able to follow up and just check in with people. And I think that's really important for two things. One, it shows that you care, but it's also from a clinical side. How well can this person tolerate the training that you just gave them? Yeah. If you have no idea, then you don't know how to update the program if you need to.

You don't know what to do for the subsequent session. So just having a follow up, it's Hey, just check in to see how you're doing after the session. And it's the actual physical therapist doing it, not like the, a robot that's been programmed or [00:27:00] the front desk. It's no, it's the person actually took care of me, is actually inquiring about how I'm feeling.

It's, it goes back to you're just doing a lot of things that most people don't do, but I think it, it needs to honestly get done in order for people to get better.

Danny: Yeah. And it brings up a a good question too of doing these things requires time and requires effort. And with that, the ability to do this and see 20 people a day is impossible.

So even for us, what we found was like 30, 30, 32 hours max a week is where our staff would settle out for us to be able to say that's emotional. See and still be able to do these things we want you to do. And have involvement in the community and not feel like you're just, a machine in the office and they just, we're just plugging you in and you're just, that's it.

You, you got other shit going on that needs to be a part of your life too. Besides this, so what have you guys found from a standpoint of schedule efficiency and how much somebody can really, treat in a week [00:28:00] and still be able to do a lot of these things that you're talking about that are non-automated and they take effort in time.

Andy: I would say 25 to 30. Yeah. I, so I was at a practice before where I did over 40. That's on top of, that's on top of running other programs. Yeah. Online training, semi-private stuff. And I was exhausted. I was a literal zombie. Yeah. And I think 25 to 30 is the sweet spot of delivering high quality care.

And then after that, figuring out another way to generate ven revenue that isn't so session dependent. And you could, maybe it's like, Hey, you're building a semi-private training group for golfers. Maybe you're building an online monthly program for barbell athletes, but having something where you can start to get more volume in at a li lesser price point, but make more for the hour.

Yeah.

Danny: And this is where I feel like there's this give and take with the model, right? For me I never really enjoyed the fact that [00:29:00] we couldn't work with certain populations, but I can't really work with certain populations without stacking up a bunch of visits on our staff. And, so for us, we always looked at it like, all right, we have pro bono work that we can do, we can we can so help support non-profits that we want to be a part of and we'll work with people at, free or reduced rates if it's necessary.

And it's actually something that is the only way we can work with them, but it does alienate a certain percentage of the population that, I frankly think that we, could help. And I'm sure you feel the same way, and I just feel like that problem is a bit difficult to, and challenging to solve.

What have you guys looked at in regards to being able to help serve, other populations that maybe aren't necessarily gonna be paying what we charge and what you charge for an hourly rate and they can't and, but yet still be able to affect them in some, positive way?

Andy: Yeah, I love that I'm smiling because this is something we just started. Oh, cool. And it's starting to work out. We created the app and for me, I had some, someone ask [00:30:00] me like, why are you creating all these things? I'm like, the only reason I create things is because there's a specific problem that I'm trying to solve for.

So with the app, I've created one monthly kettlebell and barbell programs on the app that people can follow two different tiers. And then there's 10 different programs, over 10 programs now on the app that they can do themselves. Within those 10 over programs, there's three Kickstarter programs and four different lower body and upper body rehab tears.

And those are kind of things that we almost try to get all of our clients to when they come see us. So I had someone I consulted with in South Carolina coming to see me with a meniscus injury. And money was an issue, but I said, Hey listen, let's do our evaluation and if I think that you're fit to get onto our app, I'll build out certain specific things that you need and then you can do the lower body tiers as you as necessary heads tolerated.

And whenever you need a follow up, just let me know. But otherwise, it's a way more cost efficient standpoint. [00:31:00] You still have access through the app, you still have coaching queues and everything that you need. And from the evaluation, I give you something very tangible and specific to work with for a couple of weeks.

Yeah, so the app has helped us solve that problem. If someone's Hey, this is expensive let's just see if you're capable and functionally, capable of performing the tiers in the app. And eventually it gets you to the point where, hey, you can do the training and it's not gonna be some crazy training.

It's just no nonsense. Good quality strength training with some biometrics baked into it so that you're ready for what we call hashtag

Danny: any moment. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. I think it's a great way to leverage it. It's just being able to, and this is what I'm interested with you, is your practice, your mentorship and app.

I don't know what else are you still flipping shoes? What else are you, what else are you doing? It's a lot of stuff, just the three things I mentioned. How do you manage all of this and still be able to implement on a high level of all the things just named.

Andy: I do little flip shoes time to time. It's like a itch, [00:32:00] like you walk Nice.

Danny: Explain that real quick cuz I didn't really get this, I've never done this, yeah. I under, I kinda understand the concepts. You just buy some shoes there, like they're dirty and old. You clean 'em up and then you resell 'em somebody

Andy: else.

I've done everything under the sun when it comes to sneakers. So sixth grade I started buying sneakers with my uncle's eBay account and I would buy these vintage Nikes and I would clean 'em up myself, hand soap, toothbrush, dry 'em up, buy new laces, and I would flip 'em on Craigslist and beat people in the city.

It started to get even more complex in high school cuz I started buying more limited shoes. But I started becoming a, I started getting someone to restore the sneakers for me. I would buy the shoes, drop 'em off in downtown with this guy that would clean 'em. I would get the shoes back, then I would sell 'em again.

And that's what I was doing for a while. And then in college I started hitting up Nike outlets and this is when my process became a little bit more [00:33:00] refined, but I would. Go look at his peer sneakers. I would search up the code, the product code on eBay, and I would look at what that sneaker had just sold for.

Because if you go to the sidebar on eBay, you could see previously sold. Yeah. And I knew if I could turn a profit this time, I wasn't just selling, super limited sneakers. I was just selling anything that I can find that I knew could sell. So one of the, my favorite flips was there was a golf shoe that was like 28 bucks at the Nike.

And no one knew that they were hot, cuz they weren't, anything crazy. But I knew on Eby they were selling for one 20. Whoa. So I must have gone through a hundred pairs of those. Geez. But for pretty much my whole life, up until I graduated physical therapy school, I just hustled sneakers. I bought and sew sneakers on eBay.

I was at least let do it on math. You ate.

Danny: That's, was that $10,000 off of golf sneakers? I made a hundred bucks and you sold a hundred pairs of them. [00:34:00] Yeah. So

Andy: one, holy shit, one year while I was working as a physical therapy aid, when I was at my peak, I think I did 90,000 in revenue selling sneakers.

Jesus

Danny: Christ. Yeah. Dude. That's more than most physical therapists make, you know it. Th But this is actually I find this fascinating because this I wonder sometimes if this idea of entrepreneurship, that's entrepreneurship, is pretty much as plain as you could see, right? It's just you,

Andy: I was bookkeeping paying taxes.

This was legit. A hundred

Danny: percent, right? Yeah, exactly. And, but that's like from an early age, that's sixth grade, you said. You were how did that happen? Do you come from a family of entrepreneurs? Is that just something that you wanted to have some freedom over where you could buy and you didn't really have a whole lot going on?

Like what drove that?

Andy: I, being in New York City as a kid, like you just wanted to have the nicest sneakers. And my family. We don't come from much, my dad was a French chef. My mom was a, my mom worked in a sweatshop, or you could say it was the [00:35:00] seamstress. If you wanna give a nice, proper title, sure.

But we didn't have much money growing up and everything I had was hand me downs, but I always wanted the newest sneaker. So one year my parents always forced us to go these afterschool programs to learn more math, which is very exciting. Not really. Yeah. But they gave you five bucks and I'm like, mom, like five bucks barely covers the train.

I only have a dollar 50 to eat. So I would hop the turns style to get on the train so I could skip the fair. And I would eat like dollar noodles in downtown flushing. Now save the rest of the money. Got a pair of Air Force one s bought for 60 bucks. I'm like, okay, if I could sell this for 70, I can make 10 bucks.

I kept rinsing and repeating that process until I had two shoes. Then I kept repeating until I had four shoes. That process just kept carrying on to the point where I had 500 something pairs of shoes in my parents' place. Dang. And for me, it's always been like, with the sneakers, it's like, it's something I always love.

I couldn't stop researching sneakers. Like when everyone started reading [00:36:00] Shoe Dog, I'm like, man, I know a lot of this stuff ready cuz I was so into sneakers. I was on forums, I went to conventions met didn't meetups all over the city was in groups and stuff like that. So it was something that I was very passionate about.

But the difference is I didn't have, it didn't feel like I was fulfilling a purpose if that, I was just selling sneakers. I didn't feel like I was getting fulfillment from it. But it was nice to have lots of money, as a kid. Dude

Danny: it, what's interesting about it is I feel like It's, there's freedom in being able to cr get, just get money without having to rely on anybody else to say, yeah, I'll buy you these shoes or not.

If you wanted to buy a pair of shoes, you could do it cuz you're making your own money flipping sneakers and people, do this all kinds of different ways. I said all I sold all kinds of shit as a kid, I did a lot, I did a lot of stuff that what I probably shouldn't have.

But the thing is for me it was very similar and. I, but I don't know, I know plenty of people that grew up [00:37:00] like you and I that didn't do that, right? So there's obviously something else going on there. I don't know if it's just like an entrepreneurial personality type or whatever it might be, but this idea of just freedom of being able to be able to do what you want to do, I see that kind of as a common theme.

And even today even with what you're doing now, you just, you've just taken your attention and pointed at something different that you know you're very passionate about, and you have an opportunity to grow something, probably far more legitimate and or just bigger and impactful than flipping sneakers.

For you now, like with moment in particular, what's the vision for that? What are you trying to build towards? Let's say it's three years from now and we're fucking grabbing pizza again, or something like that. And I'm like, dude, hey, you did it. You're here. What would that, what's a home run for you in three years with what you guys have going on?

Andy: Man, I used to have these very crazy visions. But now I just I realize one, when you realize where you come from and you realize why you're doing this stuff, whenever I feel I can get a home run almost every other day, every week. Because for me, the go with moment [00:38:00] has always been help. Someone that's struggling right now without any clarity and they just been stuck in this particular situation for a long time without any plan to get them out of it and give them that aha moment.

And that's the whole basis behind it. Like for me, I've suffered from lots of stress, lots of anxiety, depression where I didn't leave my house for a month and a half. Or if I did I just took a couple of walks around the block and I had to go home cause I was getting a headache or I was getting dizzy.

And, I've had panic attacks behind a wheel and I've really struggled to the point where I went to the doctor and they're like, Hey you're suffering from generalized anxiety disorder. And that was all I got a blanket diagnosis. And it wasn't until like I started reading all these books when I was in physical therapy school that I started getting clarity with what was going on.

The brain that changes itself, man, search for meeting and all these books about human behavior and just humans in general. [00:39:00] That it had those aha moments where I felt like, wow, one, I'm not doomed forever. Two, I can live with this and I can live a very meaningful life. And for me, like that's a home run.

If I can see someone tomorrow and I can give 'em that kind of clarity that they've been looking for, I hit a home run already. It doesn't need to be anything bigger than that to me. I just wanna help people get what I was missing. I felt at one point I was very helpless and I realized we see that all the time in the clinic.

Yeah. And just helping one person, maybe once a week get that is a huge home run. Yeah. Everything else I just wanna remain flexible with. And now it's cool cause we get to do that multiple ways. Like with certain clinicians that feel really stuck. They've taken all these weekend courses, I don't know what to do anymore.

I feel like I've done everything under the sun. I'm not getting the outcomes I want. Let's break that down into mentorship. And maybe there's a couple of moments in there where you really start to create these connections that you didn't see before, and now you're able to help people you haven't been able to help.

And to me, that's a home run.

Danny: [00:40:00] Yeah, I think it's very necessary, man. I remember early on just, I felt like I went to a really good school. I felt like we had a lot of we had a lot of time in the clinic. We spent about 14 months in the clinic before we graduated. It was actually half our program.

Just the way the Army sets it up, it's very different. So by the time I graduated I had a lot of reps. But what I also had was I had a lot of information and I, a lot of stuff I just didn't know. And honestly, a lot of my instructors didn't know and starting to get. Into movement based things and learning more about what Greg Cook was talking about with F M S and S F M A.

And then I'm diving into d n s stuff and P n F stuff and, Kelly's Kelly's Tourette stuff with with mobility WA at the time. And then trying to piece it all together and mesh it together with reps of other people. And now I'm just testing shit on people that don't know if it's working or not.

I would say it probably took me five years after graduating and a lot of money and a [00:41:00] lot of time and energy and continuing education courses to try to figure out what was going on because I, if maybe this is just me, but normally I would go to a con ed course, like I remember going to an S F M A course and.

They went over like ket, a lot of kettlebell stuff. Every single person I saw was getting kettlebell arm bars for a month afterwards because cuz I was like, this is awesome. Kettle armbar, right? Every, you could come in for a fucking ankle sprain. I'm giving you kettlebell arm bars because that's what was top of mind for me, right?

And so I feel like there was such a need for that, to distill that stuff down and be able to help people, accelerate the learning curve. Cuz when you're doing it on your own, it's just so difficult. And finding mentorship is tough even as well because even great clinicians are so busy seeing patients.

It's not like they have a ton of time to be able to sit down with you and take you through their thought process, which may just be based off of reps and not necessarily based off of frameworks and something repeatable, right? I think there's a huge need for it and for you.

How do you, I guess if you have to pick, all right, because sometimes that we have to get to a point where it's this one is more important [00:42:00] than this one. Is it more important for you to help clinicians be great clinicians or to help people get over injuries? If you don't have a choice, you gotta pick one?

Andy: I've already made the decision and it's eventually going to get to the point where I focus a lot more on helping clinicians become better clinicians. Yeah. I think there's a bigger impact, right? It's kinda like you and Eve, you guys can keep running the cash-based practice, but it's like you guys also can teach other people how to run cash-based practices, right?

And start to scale a motto that's just better for the individual, right? You're serving the individual post the insurance companies. And I think of it the same way. It's I can see my, 25 to 30 patients a week, or I can teach other clinicians how to do what we're doing and then they can treat people within their community that just haven't been able to get that solution.

Yeah, I, there's. It's such a good feeling when people share stuff in our Slack channel. Hey, here's someone I just evaluated. I'm able to show them exactly what was going on. We got [00:43:00] them positive changes immediately. And then they bought into the program. They bought a package too. Or Hey, I use your screens at a a seminar that I was hosting.

I close five clients with the screen. Cause I was able to change that shin box position right then and there. Man, I love it. I love that you guys are able to take something immediately and just apply it. And then you can also show people how it goes. It's not these low level rehab things cuz we go over ply metrics local motor stuff, sprinting and being able to show clinicians that just weren't comfortable with that before and have passed how to do that.

There's no better feeling.

Danny: I wanna get into that. Where people can learn more about that in a second. But y you're such an avid reader. I wanted to, and you've already named two books, maybe these are right. But I wanted to get. A personal development recommendation and a clinical development recommendation.

Just one. You got 400 behind you somewhere, you gotta go back there and grab one of each. Which do you pick?

Andy: It's gonna be some recency bias, I think for personal [00:44:00] development. I gotta go with Crushing It by Gary Vaynerchuk. It's one of those things where, and I, people are always like, why are you focusing so much on content?

Yeah. And I usually ask them like, Hey, what are your favorite brands that you like to purchase from? Do they make content? They do. That's kinda why I make content, because I gotta stay top of mind and I gotta, be able to show people what I know and be able to provide people value before they even start to interact with me.

Because if they know what I'm doing is valuable, and that's what Gary kind of says, the better you get at marketing. Easier sales becomes because they already want your service. Yeah. And it doesn't matter how discounted your service is if no one wants your service. You could run all of these things, but it's no one knows that you're valuable.

The only thing you keep posting is I got five slots open and you're not providing any actual value near your content. So Gary crushing you by Gary Vaynerchuck, it's just takes great mindset shift on one being an entrepreneur, but two, like [00:45:00] content strategy. And I think from a personal development standpoint, you need to get really good at content.

And it doesn't mean you have to talk in front of a camera, it doesn't mean you have to do a podcast. It doesn't mean you have to do blogs. It's just whatever your strength is. Really hone in on your strengths, capitalize on that and do it for a couple of years and see what happens. I think that's a great

Danny: point.

And I don't know if you can have a business without, you can have a business without content, but. It's better with content. Just as in regards what you're saying, it makes the sales process so much easier. It makes people far less price sensitive. But also it's a creative outlet, man. I think, it's like I do a lot of content and I enjoy it, between podcasts for two year, for five years straight.

But the thing that I actually really enjoy more, and this is to your point of find the thing that you really like. I really like to write, and I didn't know that until I decided to write a book. And it sucked at the time, right? It was like, dude, this sucks. Cause I would wake up early every morning, I would write this fucking book and then, but when I was done with it, I realized I really liked that process.

So even [00:46:00] writing emails, right? And I was bringing this up recently with one of the guys in our mastermind group who's starting to do a email newsletter, and he's it's so boring. It's these parts are, they're all the same. And I go, dude, I do like that. Like I have never ever written a email newsletter the way most people do.

I, it's always, I. Story, lesson, call to action. That's it. If anybody ever reads any emails that I write, it's always literally, it's like I wrote an email the other day about marking lessons from Beyonce. Like it has nothing to do with cash-based practices whatsoever. But because of that, open rates are really high people.

It's engaging cause it's part of your personality and you're sharing something that's like interesting to you and the people that find that interesting will stick around and absorb your content. So I think you have to look at it and I've read that book. It's a great book. It's really figuring out what are you passionate about that aligns with whatever it is your business is doing, and then sharing that in a way that's simple that people can understand, especially in the clinical world.

Because you're not speaking to clinicians unless you're trying to do that. In most cases, it's potential patients and then helping them through something and [00:47:00] stories are just they're so compelling and they're just like fun to, to explain and be a part of. So I think that's an awesome recommendation.

And especially on the content recommendation. Like people, they just have to be doing it. There's a reason why branding is important. It's more than just marketing, it's branding. It's awareness of you. It's awareness of what your beliefs are and your values. And if you don't know what those are, you gotta start there first, and then you gotta start putting that on a regular basis.

So I think it's an awesome recommendation. What about clinically?

Andy: Clinically man, or

Danny: a course that you thought was very impactful? Could be that too

Andy: clinically, I would say if you've ever read Anti-Fragile by Naim to lead, yeah. It's not an actual, clinical book where it'll talk about things, but it makes you realize that we just.

Kind of over pathologize everything and we make people feel very fragile. Yeah. And then it comes to a point where you have to realize all the robustness in human beings, and that we don't have to put bubble wrap on [00:48:00] everyone that we work with. And that stress is okay as long as one, you change your perception of stress, and two, it's dosed in a way that your body can adapt to it to build armor in the future.

But I find that after reading that book, it's one book that helped me tremendously with my anxiety because it reframed it. It's not like these things are gonna break you down. You can actually become better with all this chaos. It's not this you're not a rigid person that's always gonna react this way.

You can change your perceptions, you can change the way you behave and react to things. And instead of negative events negatively impacting you, they can actually have a positive effect. And that's when you become anti-fragile. And I find that we do that all the time clinically, but we can totally have that same effect in our own life.

Danny: Dude, that's a, that's such a great way to look at that book. Cause that's not a clinical book like per se. It's a, it's definitely falls in the realm of personal development. It's, but it's so interesting because you're right, most people, especially in what we know about chronic pain, for instance, right?

The way we feel about ourself actually dictates a lot [00:49:00] of how we actually feel, positively or negatively. And just something that simple can make such a big difference. I used to do this thing whenever I was treating patients where if they were going through a big surgery, like an a c l surgery, I would give them the obstacle as the way the Ryan Holiday book.

I would give it to 'em. I'd be like, listen, you need to read this. This is a eight month process and don't give it back. This is your book. I actually, I gave away many of those books, and it, the, granted some of these were youth athletes and to get them to read a book, if you tried to get me to read a book when I was 18, good luck because I was probably gonna.

I was probably gonna look up Cliff notes or something like that, but now they probably listen to a podcast and summarize it. But if they actually read it, it was so interesting to see the difference between their willingness to do some of these things that they had to do, some of the discomfort they had to go through to get back to where they're going.

And I feel like there can be like, so impactful. So that's such a great example of applying some of that to the people that you're working with in a clinical setting. And so anyway, go ahead.

Andy: No, I was gonna say, you mentioned you give that book out a lot. I actually have a book that I give out a lot [00:50:00] too.

What's it called? And it's called the Long Game by Dory Clark.

Danny: Okay. Yeah. I've actually have the the audio book that I haven't written. I haven't listened to it yet, so I, it's on my list.

Andy: My favorite book of 2021. And I recommend it to everyone. But to your point, like when someone is having a major transition in their life and they're a client of mine, I usually give 'em that book.

Hey, yeah, I think you'll find a lot of val in this books. Let me know what you think. Yeah. And the clients that read it are always like, it literally gave me something gave me an answer that was like looking for, just felt like the right time, a right book at the right time. And I love being able to like, Hey, you're gonna love this one.

I know that this is gonna by you not of value. Yeah. At this point in your life. I think that's such an

Danny: interesting thing to do too, because you have you've read a lot of books. I've done the same thing. I find it's crazy to me that I didn't read much until I was like, not even in college until I was until I was in the Army.

I, so I had a, I had an officer, there was a commanding officer of mine, and he would have these officer book clubs occasionally, [00:51:00] and he. It was, they were always interesting books. This is actually where I first got involved with he gave us meditations by Marcus Israelis. And, which is, that's a difficult thing to read and understand, but talking to him about some of this stuff it's very common in the military world from a leadership standpoint for that book to be, pretty popular.

But I remember thinking, I read it, I was like, damn, reading's great. And I've been avoiding it cuz I'm a very slow reader. I'm incredibly slow. If I have to read out loud, you'll think I'm like an idiot. Like I literally, it's, I'm bad at it. And so it takes me forever to get through stuff. But that started for me, like this desire to wanna learn more and read and to think that you can get so much knowledge out of something that's 10 bucks is just like, why would somebody not do that?

Unless they either were unwilling to or didn't know that it could be that impactful for them.

Andy: It literally, it, it's life changing. Yeah. Like when you find that right book at the right time, It changes everything. Totally. And that's why I try to, in [00:52:00] physical therapy school, it was great. I had more time cause I wasn't trying to get straight A's.

I was like, all right, cool. I got, I know enough to get a, to pass this test with an 80, 85, I'm satisfied. Let me focus on some of other stuff. So I was crushing like a book a week in physical therapy school. Thanks. Like whatever. And get my hands on. And I didn't start reading until I got into physical therapy school.

And that's when I realized, I was like, man, I never liked sitting down to read Harry Potter and 1980. Totally sure that looks fucking awesome. 1984. All of the, like the signed reading that you're getting as a kid. Yeah. Just never interested me. But I was spent hours looking at sneaker forms, reading stuff.

It's like when I got into physical therapy school, I was like, I spent hours and hours reading books about psychology, human movement, bio mechanics, all of these things. And I can't put these things down. Even when I'm on a vacation, same thing. I just bring two books and I just read on a beach and I'll be locked in.

Danny: Yeah, it's, yeah. It's so interesting cause you didn't get ruined by that early on cause you just didn't read anything like like me, we saved it for when it [00:53:00] probably mattered mattered more. And not that off on a tangent, but what I've found with some of these books too, even I've gravita gravitated more towards sci-fi in, in some ways like I'll read sci-fi books here and there because of Kelly Tourette's recommendation to me of doing that because of extrapolating life lessons out of this fictional world.

And it's really interesting I read Dune off of his recommendation, which is a, that's a difficult read. It's a huge book and it's like the, it's a lot. But it was so interesting to hear is just fear is the mind killer is like one of the mantras that they have in this book.

And how that applies to like, settings outside of these fictional worlds is really interesting as well. And that, I feel like that can help pull different elements of creativity into your own frameworks and thought process you're doing. There are a little different than other people cuz you're pulling information from, even more just different varying perspectives and and it's just been fun, man.

Even getting into some of the stuff with my kids I'll sit down and I'll read the Alchemist with My Son. We read that. Cool. Love that one dude So good. And it's it's a story so he understands it. Or like the Old Man in the Sea and we read that one together and then [00:54:00] it's just let's talk about this.

It's Hey, what did you think about this? What do I get from this? And just having those discussions I think is just such a good thing to do, to develop, some of your own reasoning and your own thought processes. And maybe I'm making him a, I don't know, maybe I'm screwing him up for all I know, but I just think I wish somebody would've done something like that with me and made it more enjoyable versus, Hey, here's a book.

You're gonna get tested on this read it by next week, or whatever. And I didn't want anything to do with

Andy: it. Oh man. The they used to have the reading logs in elementary school. Yeah. And I never did 'em. And I would have to forge my parent's signature Yeah. On 'em and hand 'em in, spark Notes was something I always utilized.

Yeah. So I don't think I've actually physically read a book longer than 200 pages until physical

Danny: therapy school. You wanna have something funny? When I was in. Let's see. So when I was in sixth grade, so I went to three middle schools. We moved a lot. I went to three middle schools, three high schools.

We moved the shit load. My dad was in the Army, but I was at this middle school in, this was in Clear Lake, Texas. So this is where the NASA space center is. My dad got [00:55:00] into a master's program, so he was actually technically like out of the army, but in the army doing this master's program. So I'm at this school and they have this they have this reading program.

I don't know what they're called specifically, but basically you get points by taking these tests that prove that you've read these books. So you have to take these tests and the bigger books get more points. And the winner got a $500 savings bond. So I get in there and I'm like, I'm not reading these damn books, but I came to find out you can take the quiz as many times as you want.

There's no maximum. So I would go in and I would find the books that had the most points. I would take the test, fail it, obviously, but I would remember all of the questions. And then I would go back through the books and I would look them up, and then I would take it again. And then I would usually fail another time.

And then I would go back the books and I would look up the other answers. And then I would just barely pass. But I would get like 120 book 20 points from a massive book. And then I would go and I would find another one. By the end of the school year, not [00:56:00] only did I win, but I set a record for the entire county.

No shit. Set a record for the county. They thought I was some sort of reading genius. They like, take me, I get like an award ceremony. Like the actual like entire God, whoever was running the county for the, for education, gave me an award. So what a great reader I was. I didn't read a single fucking book, not one.

I literally just took the test, figured out what the answers were, went back that's literally how hard I tried to not read a book, but was motivated by money to actually like, try to win something. They're life changing though, and I feel like you've brought up some great ones.

Man. Man's Search for Meaning is just oh my God, what an intense book that is, dude. I didn't even know that existed. If no one, if you haven't heard of that or read it. It is, I don't know many books that are just like the perspective that Guy had and the ability like, so the book is about a psychologist, clinical psychologist, That is in, I believe he's in Auschwitz.

He's in a concentration camp. He's a Jew during World War ii. And he is writing from the [00:57:00] perspective of psychologist all of the things that he sees that are terrible, that are just like the human behaviors of things and the great things that are happening in real time while he is in this concentration cran camp.

And it is just just the craziest book to read if you, once you realize what perspective he's writing it from. So that's a great one as well.

Andy: I got goosebumps just thinking about some of the points he's made. Yeah. About choice and autonomy, like the little things that make you human and the people that kept focusing on those things.

Yeah. And the live longer, they had a better mindset on stuff. It was, it's an amazing book. Highly recommend it. Yeah,

Danny: totally. So if people are interested in learning more, cause I'm sure we could talk about books for a long time, but if people are learn, interested in learning more about, in particular, I think your mentorship, is probably more of a applicable service that you have unless your knee hurts.

Go see Andy, he's in New York. But if you're interested in learning more about applying some of these frameworks, like where can they learn more about what you're doing with clinicians as far as that's concerned?

Andy: Yeah, so there's moment [00:58:00] education kajabi.com or you could just follow me, Dr.

Andy Chen. And I've got the three things on my bio, but we've got three webinars that we've hosted. One coming up right now in Thursday, that'll be live and you'll have the access to the recording on those webinars. Those are the main things to get a touchpoint of how we think. We've got case studies that I've posted on my page as well before, before and afters, how do I scale the program and things like that.

But with the webinars and the content in there, I told people this in the past. It's all out there. Meaning you, I've posted chunks of stuff, how I do things, how I utilize stuff all over Instagram YouTube TikTok, all of these different platforms already. It's just that when you get the mentorship, it is very structured.

Yeah. And it's not like for me, I'd rather provide actual value and put stuff in content that you can actually use. But if you want a higher tier, if you wanna see it through my [00:59:00] lens in a very chronological order, then we can get the mentorship.

Danny: Guys, go check it out. Andy. Dude, it's been fun getting a chance to work with you, with your business and seeing where things have, evolved to and how you've grown and how fast you guys have grown and the things you guys are doing.

It's really, it's just cool to see how much you're impacting your profession, but also people in your area with your practice. Dude, I really appreciate your time today, man. Thank you so much for jumping on the podcast. And guys, if you're interested in, anything that he's doing, go check it out.

Especially that mentorship, if you're looking to tighten up your clinical skillset, I think it's a really, I think it's a really efficient way of going about it.

Andy: Appreciate you, Danny. Thank you for

Danny: having me. Cool. You got it guys. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you next week.

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