E624 | Should You Grow Your Practice Or Stay Small With Yves Gege

In this podcast episode, Danny and Yves discuss the pros and cons of staying small in business. Danny shares their experience of staying small due to feeling uncomfortable with the unknown of growth and the vulnerability of having no source of passive revenue or back up if they got sick.

Yves shares his experience of wanting more time freedom and being able to work with patients in a more meaningful way. They also share the benefits of having a team around them and molding them into the culture they wanted.

The podcast also discusses the importance of developing relationships and being part of a community. It is noted that if one is the only person in the family to account for their income, it is important to get heavily insured in the case of an accident or illness. Building a business past oneself to increase the value of the business is suggested, as well as increasing one's financial IQ and understanding the difference between cash flow and net worth.

The concept of financial freedom is also discussed, which can be achieved through building a business and managing a team. However, the podcast emphasizes that there is no "right answer" for everyone when it comes to business decisions, and staying small is a huge accomplishment that should not be looked down upon. They advise allowing oneself the flexibility to explore what could be next and not being afraid to try something new.

Overall, the podcast encourages listeners to consider their own views on life and understand whether they are a "seeker" or a "chiller," and to recognize and break false beliefs that may be holding them back.

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] Hey, real quick before we get started, head over to Facebook and join the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. If you haven't done so yet, we have monthly live trainings going on there. There's an opportunity for you to join in the conversation instead of just listening to what I have to say on this podcast, as well as the people that I bring on.

And it's a really cool place to join about 6, 000 other clinicians that are. Honestly, trying to change the landscape of our profession through these cash and hybrid practices. One other thing that's really cool is we have a guide in there. That's a quick start guide. When you join, you can go and check this out.

There's about seven videos that we've curated that are the most common questions we get in the best case studies that we've found to really help you start, grow, and scale your practice up to seven figures. So if you haven't done so yet, head to Facebook request to join the PT entrepreneurs, Facebook group.

You have to be a clinician. We're going to check you out. We don't just let anybody in. But if you are head there, go ahead, get signed up. We'd love to have the conversation with you in that group.

So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us who don't want to see 30 patients a [00:01:00] day, who don't want to work home health and have real student loans, create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about? This is the question. And this podcast is the answer. My name is Danny Matei and welcome to the PT entrepreneur podcast.

What's going on. PT Entrepreneur Facebook group and PT Entrepreneur podcast listeners. Thanks for tuning in, uh, today. It's me and Mr. E. Gigi going over all things. Should you keep your practice small or should you grow that sucker? And this is a question that we get, I would say, uh, quite a lot in terms of whether people should really double down on their business and try to grow past himself or whether they should just stay [00:02:00] where they're at and what we would consider like a lifestyle business.

So we wanted to talk about this today. We want to kind of go over the pros and cons of each of these things and give you a better idea of what. You know, what we've seen and maybe what it's a good fit for somebody to stay small, somebody to grow to a bigger practice. Um, and why you may or may not want to do that, because I think one of the, one of the problems with visibility in a lot of, uh, practices and just life in general, I think social media has made many things very visible is, uh, You can make yourself feel really bad by comparing yourself to what everybody else is doing.

And one of those ways to do that is how people are doing with business, right? Um, and I think that's when we see a lot in terms of people look at, Oh, so and so has already hired another person or so and so's, uh, or I'm crushing so and so because they haven't hired another person or whatever. And we have these internal sort of, um, Challenges that we look at in terms of how we were holding up with everybody else.

And, um, first of all, I want to [00:03:00] say this, this is going to be a very unique decision point based on where you're at, what your goals are and your family goals and, and where you're at in your life. Um, but we'll talk through the two of these, cause we've been in both these stages, um, and I've thought through.

Staying small many times, uh, and, uh, eventually decided not to do that. So anyway, anything to add before we dive in and, uh, start talking about all this stuff?

Yves: No, not really. I mean, I'm excited to go through this. I think the purpose would be that no matter what you choose, like choose something that, We'll be fulfilling to you, right.

And don't necessarily go and grow because that's what everybody else is doing. Like, I think this is a very personal context decision and that could evolve. There's people who've wanted to stay small and then they eventually wanted to grow up and there's people that grew pretty big and like, Oh man, actually want to be small.

So, um, you know, these things evolve and change. And, um, I think it really depends on your personal situation a lot of

Danny: times too. Yeah. And [00:04:00] I'll give you just a little. Background story of for me, at least when we were making the decision of whether to grow past, um, myself at the time was only clinician, but I was working with my wife.

You know, she was running really the day to day stuff for the practice and letting me focus on just seeing patients, which was awesome. And in some ways I don't even didn't even realize how beneficial that was at the time. But You know, we had this little subleased office in on the west side of Atlanta, and there's a stage that I think a lot of people get to that's hard to leave.

And you know, if, if you are treating people by yourself and you're fairly effective at it, um, and you're charging a decent amount of money. You can actually really have a very profitable business and make considerable amount more than you can working somewhere else. So for me, this is exactly what happened.

Uh, you know, when I was at around [00:05:00] 100 to maybe 110 sessions a month, average, um, is when we started to have this. conversation. Okay. Do we hire? Do we, do we, you know, bring on other staff members and grow into another space? And there's a whole host of things that we didn't know and that we didn't feel comfortable doing because we'd never done it before.

So we probably stayed small longer than we should have. Uh, because eventually you end up getting to a point where. You have no room to take new people on, you're going to end up with maybe 115 to 125 sessions a month comfortably. Some people get higher than that, but I think it really wears them out. Um, and then from there, you know, if you look at the numbers, like if I was seeing 105 sessions a month and our average visit rate was 200 bucks a session, like I'm generating 21, 000 in, in top line revenue, gross revenue.

And if you are running a really efficient business at that point, there's no, not really a lot of overhead. Uh, let's just say you have 80%. [00:06:00] You know, net, uh, is what you're keeping 20% as expenses. Like you're gonna make about 200, 000 a year. So for somebody that has, uh, is coming from an environment where they're making 80 grant and all of a sudden pre tax, they're making 200.

Uh, that's a, that's a hell of a different place to be, and it's appealing to stay there and really get your financial house in order and pay student debt down or get your savings up. This is what we did. We just built a big cash reserve, not necessarily for the expectation that we were going to grow and scale, but just because we were being really conservative and we didn't know what we were going to do with that.

Um, so I see people stay here a lot because of that because they make a lot more money. Um, but. I can tell you, for me, um, I, uh, I got sick, uh, one year and I never, ever got sick, ever. I didn't miss a single day in seven years in the army. I didn't have a single sick [00:07:00] day. And I was teaching at the time for Kelly's group, so I was traveling a lot.

And man, traveling is the easiest way to get yourself sick. Cause you're just in and out of airports, constantly changing time zones, sleep changes, like it's tough. And I got sick. And I got, I was like, I got the flu for like a week. And I had to cancel all my patients. And I remember just thinking how shitty that was.

That all that revenue, nothing, like I couldn't do anything about it. And that was for me when I was like, okay, we got to do something about this. I didn't feel safe, honestly, staying super, super small. So, um, that's sort of my, you know, journey with that and why we made that decision was more for safety purposes, even though it can feel sketchy as you're going through it.

But, you know, I'd love to know for you, like what made you make the decision to jump from that subleased office that you had in the CrossFit gym to, you know, the, the first made to move office you guys had in Dale Island.

Yves: Yeah, I was, I think like you, when I, [00:08:00] you know, went from insurance based practice, multiple providers and started my own cash practice, the idea was I had two small children to stay small, to, uh, buy my time back, you know, treat 20 hours a week and have really good time, freedom and kind of enjoy, um, being with my kids and that was ultimately successful.

I was like, cool. I got this. I've checked that right. The first year. You make some money. I didn't do as well as you, but I did enough to kind of, you know, continue my lifestyle and, and stay that way. But what happened for me almost instantaneously, it was impact driven. Like I was talking to other physical therapists and I was talking to other, you know, Uh, people in the fitness realm and, uh, PTA, you know, Dane who ended up hiring, who were just frustrated and didn't want to go work at the mill or hated where they were at.

And, you know, and you know about this, that's ultimately what the, why the licensee, you know, thing was born, but, you [00:09:00] know. I just wanted to help other people and they were just like super frustrated. I was like, well, I figured this out. Like, you know, I'm not a genius, but I know how to get new patients. I can now charge and do packages and things like that.

So I will, I will help you do it as well. So I think really impact driven was one, uh, as you were talking, the other thing is like, I was wanting to do more what I enjoyed and I did enjoy. Being around other people and helping other people and managing other clinicians. So it's like I leaned into that right away.

Like I enjoyed seeing patients, but I had already been a decade in. And so I was like, what else can I do with my time besides seeing patients? I'd love to, you know, expand my skill set. So I leaned into, you know, which basically what I enjoyed is, is helping other clinicians almost, you know, after a year of just having my cash practice.

Danny: Yeah, I see. And it's interesting because we come from two different perspectives. Like I wanted nothing to do with managing people. I had just come out of an environment where I was managing a lot of [00:10:00] people and I hated it in the army. Like it was just like, one of the reasons that I didn't want to continue down that path was I just knew it was going to be, you know, clinic, uh, you know, chief roles and bigger clinic chief roles.

And next thing you know, you're managing all these people and all their problems and you're running this. You're running this, um, playbook that, that they put in front of you. That's the, you know, the government system playbook. And I really didn't like it. So my, I had like a bad taste in my mouth from having to manage other people in a really like, uh, a system full of red tape.

So that's what I associated with. I'd never worked in any other setting as a, as a leadership role. Um, so probably is one of the reasons why we stayed there for longer. Uh, and, and also there was just something like really nice about the, the ability to go from like the environment where I was, where I got to see somebody once every, you know, three to four weeks, maybe, uh, cause our schedules were just so busy and we were so understaffed to being able to like [00:11:00] know everybody's name and have to build that rapport and that relationship and trust with them and see them in a, in a more, on a more frequent basis.

It also just have like amazing. Uh, you know, outcomes from people being like, just so compliant, which I wasn't used to, you know, I mean, I, I used to quiz people that would come and see me when I was in the army to see if they were doing the shit they were supposed to do, you know, I'd be like, okay, show me your exercises and they would make, they would do some half ass variation of some shit that I showed them.

I'm like, you weren't doing your exercises, talking about man, they're like, I'm sorry. I didn't do it. Whatever. I never once had that. And I just wasn't like, it was like such a pure relationship that I wanted to be in this like clinical driver's seat and to see, cause I would get frustrated. I'd be like, am I just not good at what I do?

Or are you not actually doing your part? And finally I was like, Well, now that's taken away. Everyone is doing what they're supposed to do. So let's see what I can do. Let's see what all this shit that I've learned actually, you know, does it help? And [00:12:00] it was awesome. It was just such a fun time for me to be a clinician and really just focus on that stuff.

And I, I think that the, again, the challenge for me was getting sick. And also, you know, like just going out of town on vacations and, uh, and just not having any income come in, I felt very vulnerable to be honest with you because we didn't have any source of passive revenue. And I remember, you know, one of the first places that I ever got any sort of business guidance was a group that, uh, helped me to sort of get organized on some of our core values and mission and all that.

And, um, you know, they said to me at first, the first time they go, look, right now you have a job. Cause if you get hit by a bus today, your company makes no money. Like you, and you might like your job and that's cool, but you have to decide whether you want to keep a job. Or if you want to build a business and, um, you know, and, and it was really out of just security that we decided to go that direction, the impact side came later, you know, I didn't really want to manage people when I realized I could run people through the, the type of business that I wanted [00:13:00] to run, it actually was like super rewarding.

In fact. I would say, and I wrote this stuff down as I was thinking about it, the thing that I've enjoyed the most about starting and running a cash based practice is the team of people you get to hire and build around you and, and sort of like mold into the culture that you want and that you, you, you have is for sort of your vision for that.

That's the most valuable, rewarding thing that I've had out of that entire business. And I just like had to be drug into that, um, mainly by Ashley because I didn't want to do it. And, uh, I didn't know how to do it too, which I think scares a lot of people off, but, but man, I really am glad I didn't miss out on that because it was totally worth it.

Yves: Yeah. I think that's almost, uh, a little bit of a prerequisite when I talk to people, like, do you want to grow? Do you want to scale? Do you want to stay small? You're going to have to embrace that leadership role. You're going to have to enjoy it. You're going to have to. Learn it like that's going to be a big part of what your day to day operations is.

You're going to [00:14:00] move out of the clinical role and you're going to move more into a business, business ownership, leadership role, right? And like, do you want to do that? And maybe some people don't make people, some people want to stay. Small and be a clinician and chill out there and charge a really good rate.

And, and that's totally fine. And it reminded me, and I think you told me this, I feel like maybe, you know, when all this got started at, uh, ClickFunnels, you know, we were in Orlando, I think you showed me like something that said like, man, I'm not here. And I just made 5, 000 or whatever. Right. Like you got it on mind, body.

And I'm like, make money while you're on vacation. Right. Like, you know, it's like make money when you sleep. That never resonated with me, but like, if I can't be there and patients are still being seen and lives are still being impacted and we're generating revenue, I was like, that sounds awesome. Like, it sounds really cool to, to be a part or to have started something, you know, like I started this and now it's this machine that runs on its own, which is just like, I.

Like [00:15:00] if I can grade them like that, I feel like that's a huge win. Like I feel successful, so to speak, as opposed to, like you said, I just have a job. Yes. I'm helping people. Yes. It's a cash model, but now I have this, like, you know, I've built this thing that has a life of its own and that's, you know, very proud moment, I think for a lot of people.

Danny: Oh, my gosh, man. I mean, 100%. Like I, I vividly remember the first time that we generated money in the practice without me doing it. And I was actually at a mastermind event in San Diego. And the time zone is three hour difference, right? So I was going to the gym early in the morning there, which was like six, and it was nine o'clock, um, in Atlanta.

And I'm walking to the gym and I, I pull up at the time we were using mind body and I pull up my mind body app. And, uh, the, the first provider that we hired had seen a patient and sold a package, which at the time was like 1500 bucks or something like that. Right. And it was such an interesting moment for me because like the walk to [00:16:00] this gym was over the, like where the pool deck was, which was right on the bay in the downtown area.

And like, you know, it's mornings, like the sun's just coming up and. And I just stopped for a second. I was like, holy shit. This is crazy. You know, there's, I didn't do this and I had been doing all the work and my mindset was always like, I can just work really hard and I'll just, you know, put, put in a lot of hours.

And I did for a really long time. And I remember just thinking. That this was such a like pivotal moment where it wasn't that I was just working really hard because I hadn't actually done that, uh, that visit, I hadn't sold that, that package, but our company had generated that revenue and now it was more about leverage.

It was more about, well, what things do I need to be really focusing on to where we can do more of that? Um, because yes, it's great on the revenue side, but also we were starting to build this little. You know, Avenger squad of amazing clinicians that that were also helping people and people were [00:17:00] raving about them and we were mentoring them as well.

So, um, that was a really cool moment. And it's something that I look back on that. I, I think that. You know, it could have gone the other way, right? I could have, the first hire could have sucked and it may be, it's like now you were tracking, you stay small because you made a bad decision. I think I see people do that as well.

But, um, for us, you know, it worked out in a manner that just aligned correctly. And, and, um, you know, the lifestyle side, I just would never do it. I just don't think, I don't, I get why people stay small and I get that there's seasons in your life where it makes a lot of sense. Um, but. You're missing out on the opportunity to really have a lot of personal development and to really develop other human beings that it's just so damn important in my opinion to be able to take these people and teach them the things that we've maybe have learned for the better and avoid some of the things that we You know, have, have learned the hard way and help them develop as people.

And, and a lot of those people end up moving on and that's [00:18:00] normal too, but I know that they're going to move on and they're still going to work with people the right way. And they're going to help people with these complex musculoskeletal problems that can't seem to be addressed all that easily other places.

And, and so, so anyway, that that's my view on it. But, but, um, I, I have a few questions that I think you should ask yourself if you're thinking about this, right? So, and maybe we can touch on each of these and, and just. Get your thoughts on it. So the first one that I would ask yourself is what is important to you to really think about that.

Like when you start your business, what is important to you in regards to you starting that business? So if you think back, like when you started made to move, what, what was important to you for that business to be able to accomplish? It was important

Yves: to me to be better than the place I was at before was a huge driving force.

So for me that, yeah, yeah. So to go deeper, it would be clinically, like all the [00:19:00] stuff you said resonated with me. Like the patients, if you had a patient that was compliant, it was like, this is my favorite patient ever. So having more of those. And then just having clinical freedom. Cause the place I was at before, I very much had to follow a flow sheet and a set of things.

I really wasn't able to use a lot of my clinical judgment. So for me, it was very driven on clinical freedom. Um, uh, second thing right off the bat was time freedom too. Like, you know, I was looking around, I feel like this is when like the tech startup world was starting to happen and there was more time freedom and, you know, people were staying at home and working and I was leaving, you know, I go to the gym at.

And I would get back home by time I was home. It was seven o'clock at night. And I was like, this is not what I would like the next 30, 40 years to be like, like I would like more time freedom. So I was instantly able to achieve that in a cash practice, right? We know that you can generate the same amount of revenue.

In about 20 hours than you, you know, that I was doing working a 50 60 hour workweek almost instantaneously So [00:20:00] those two things were the most important. It was really it was time for I mean the impact obviously as well But that time, you know, I was just in the weeds I just wanted to not you know run myself ragged and I want to just enjoy working with my patients every day and work with my kind of patient if that makes sense like crossfit or demographic like, you know to go back I feel like One of my proudest moments was walking into the gym and seeing one of my patients doing their accessory work and showing somebody else what they were doing and helping them.

And I was like, this is amazing. Right? Like, wow. You know, like, I didn't have to, you know, I did, I tested people too, which is funny, but they always did their stuff. Cause they were just, you know, it was just amazing. They were motivated, you know, and like we can talk about why cash makes sense or why it doesn't, but ultimately I just saw a significant percentage of people who were bought in day one.

Danny: Yeah. And this is, I would say there's, there's two main drivers for a lot of people of why they decide that they want to go this route. Um, some of it, I would say one falls into sort of lifestyle and that would [00:21:00] be make more money, have more time, freedom. And that sounds good to everybody. Right. But if you're a, if you're a clinical nut, like if you're obsessive over like being a great clinician and this is your art, this isn't your job.

This is the thing that you're trying to become the best in the world at. And you are absolutely passionate about being great at what you do, which I think has a lot of merit too. And there's, it's less and less common to be honest, those people. What I see is like, they're like, I'm frustrated. I can't treat people the way that I want.

And I am starting to get really burnt out. Not necessarily from the work that I want to do, but from the work I'm forced to do with the people, the population that maybe I don't get a lot of enjoyment with, or feel like I get much of a challenge with, and the volume of maybe the people that I'm working with, do I, I don't actually have the time to do some of these things that take time.

Uh, that I've learned and that's where I see, I see these sort of like artists of clinicians that are just, they're just so frustrated and they, it's like [00:22:00] kicking and screaming. They decide to go the business direction, right? That was a hundred percent me. I want it. I wanted nothing to do with it. Nothing.

I could, I could care less about the business side of it, but, but damn, I wanted to work with people a certain way. And I, as I, as I looked at it. I said, this seems like a really cool vehicle. I can work with less people, you know, so the volume is lower. I can, I can do more complex stuff with them. And the buying is there because they're paying for it.

Right? So it's like, why would you waste your own money and my time and your time? Did not even listen to me. Uh, so I thought that they would get rid of it and it does. And, you know, so if you fall into one of these two buckets, like that's usually what drives people into it and one is not better than the other.

They're just different reasons for why you start. You typically end up in the same place. And I think the time freedom side, what is so cool about it is I see a lot of people leave the profession and go into nonclinical roles. This just happened at athletes potential. One of their providers just took a tech job actually.

Um, and not [00:23:00] treating patients at all anymore. So completely nonclinical and you know, what, what we get is the opportunity to be able to see fewer people. So you're still, you're still involved in the clinical side of the thing that you like, but it's not 50 hours a week, right? It's not, it's not as, uh, mentally draining as trying to juggle all these people and all these questionnaires and documentation and it's just such a more direct relationship that is, uh, doesn't have as much red tape around it.

And that creates this like energy you'll get from the people that you work with, that you don't actually come home feeling completely exhausted at the end of the day and have nothing left over for your family, but you actually have quite a lot of energy and a lot of cool stories of the people that you've engaged with and talk to and the outcomes that they may have, they may have gotten in the things they've gotten back to.

And. You know, if you look at the personal reward side of the clinical world, there's, I can't think of really much else that, that is on the same level as what we get to help people with and how [00:24:00] much direct feedback we get from them about how much they're able to do and the outcomes they have. And that's just like such an energizing thing.

So I think it's a, it's a trade off a lot of people look at and they're like, okay, cool. I get to be. the way I want. I get to work with the people that make the most sense for me that I'm interested in working with. And as a by product of that, you can make Twice as much if you're good at this, uh, as working for somebody else, like, of course, there's so many more of these clinics that are basically popping up all over the place because that exchange is pretty rare to be able to stay in the profession.

Yves: Yeah. As you talk about that, I feel like another big driver for me was. Those relationships, right? Like my favorite patients were the patients that were committed coming in on a regular basis is the insurance based practice, right? Like I loved seeing those patients. I loved making a big difference in their lives.

They were bought in. We were chatting back and forth about how much they're running or like strength training. Like it was just, it was more all encompassing. And I really believe that's what the biggest impact we [00:25:00] can make in our profession is we can be. The quarterback for somebody's health, the stuff you say all the time, I believe that for a very, very long time.

And I was, I knew that would not typically happen in insurance based practice. It's difficult to do that when you're juggling 2 to 4 patients an hour, when you're seeing 10 to 20 people a day, right? Like I'm seeing 5. To six people a day. And I can develop these really awesome relationships and, you know, talk, go home and talk about it in my life.

Like, you're not going to believe, you know, what so and so did they, you know, they haven't deadlifted in two years and they just deadlifted their body weight and they're so ecstatic. And they told all their friends and like, what a great day I could have. And that was just happening on a regular basis, which was, it was so cool.

You know what I mean? It was just, you know, it's, it's very relationship based and community driven. So like the second tier of that is. We would always talk about, Oh, we're going to go to this run and we're going to be part of the community and we're going to do these things. And we never did an insurance based practice.

And we said we would, but like, if we did, it was kicking and screaming and nobody cared. And it didn't really [00:26:00] make a difference. But once we transitioned to a cash practice. Being a part of the community was the main driver of new patients. So not only was I incentivized to do it, but also it just became a part of the norm, a part of who we are.

Um, you know, and all these little clinics I think are making massive impacts in their tiny little communities. And the compound effect of that is,

Danny: uh, is huge. Completely agree. You know, it's, um, yeah, there's these elements of it that you don't really think about that are so rewarding, especially like the community side of it.

I would say. Uh, you know, even now where I basically work exclusively from home, that's one of the things I miss more than anything is sort of the in person interactions with people that are trying to progress. And I get plenty of that on the business owner side, you know, it's not like I'm sitting here by myself, not talking to anybody.

We have conversations with, you know, our team or other clinicians that we're working with on a, on a regular basis, but it's, uh, it's just a different lens of, you know, Progress that people are trying to make in those scenarios. And then also the community side of things and, and, uh, [00:27:00] and, and, you know, just be like not being able to go to a music festival without bumping into three people that I've worked with, you know, and, um, and that's cool.

That's like, it's, it's not, uh, something I've really ever experienced before, you know, we just moved all the time. So, you know, every couple of years we were gone and we were somewhere else. So you don't even have the time to get. To, to be able to develop, uh, you know, a community of people that you're involved in, um, cause you're always leaving, right?

So that was something that was strange to me in a really great way. Uh, that I think is, is a great benefit. The, the other question, it kind of shift gears though. I think if you ask yourself, all right, what's important to me, um, to go hand in hand with that is like, what is an ideal life look like for me?

Right. And I think that's something that changes as well, because I know, you know, for you, even particular, the ability to be sort of location independent as much as you want is a huge, uh, part of what an ideal life looks like for you now. Right. And [00:28:00] so. I would say when you started made to move, what did an ideal, like, what were the, the bullet points of an ideal life for you that that business should be providing?

Yves: Yeah, you're, you're right. That's evolved, you know, and I would say the phase one, which we talked about, which is the time frame. I wanted the ability to. Walk my kids to school, pick them up when I wanted them to, take a day off and spend the day with them, take a long weekend, you know, be able to pour my time and my energy into the relationships between my family, uh, Friends as well, but like ultimately mostly my family with kids.

You're not doing much of that, especially when they're young. I just wanted to be there as much as humanly possible. I didn't really want anyone else to tell me what to do. So ultimately, you know, I wanted to, to feel like I was making impact in like, and I feel like I could have done that in four to five hours a day, right?

Like four to five hours of kind of work, you know, and then seeing [00:29:00] patients, maybe a little bit administrative time. And then I would be able to. Train, which I really enjoyed working out, being a part of the community, you know, uh, keep myself healthy and then pour as much time energy, you know, into my wife and kids, which I really felt like deserve it.

And really, you know, uh, filled my bucket at that time. And it's, it's so funny. Like, that's something that we do pretty consistently, right? With our. Clients as well as with, you know, when I did it with staff, it was always talking about like what your ideal day was like, you know what I mean? Like what is your true?

Um ideal day and I think that's so important like being able to align that for people is huge So phase one was just having a little bit of uh freedom But now we did a little bit of traveling, you know with covid and realized that being location independent was huge and so now it's this iteration of like can I be in different places and still work at the same time right and like You know Even when I had Made to Move, I was able to do that.

You know, we were in Colorado for two months and we opened a Somerville clinic. You know, like that was one of the coolest moments of my life where I'm literally being eye [00:30:00] patted in during our grand opening ribbon ceremony, like talking to all my friends. They like walked me around and I got to talk to everybody while I'm in like a hotel in Colorado and, you know, open it.

So like, these things are really possible and it's just really cool to see, um, Again, it's, I keep coming back to impact is what I say, but like, you know, it was really cool to see, like, you know, you can have kind of what you want. Like you said, on the lifestyle side, you can create, you know, when you own your business, you can create what you want, you know, like as long as you put in the work.

Danny: Yeah. And, and I think phase one that you're talking about where you want it to be able to say. I'm going to take Friday off because it's field day at my kid's school. I'm going to walk them to school these days. I'm going to pick them up these days. Um, you know, you're going to take vacation for whatever duration of time you want.

Those are all possible with a, uh, lifestyle. Business like a, a single provider clinic. Those are very possible. Um, pure location independence [00:31:00] is not like if you're talking about the ability to be wherever you want to be and run a business remotely, you can't do that. And to be the one treating all the patients.

It's impossible. Um, so what you have to think about is if that's the direction that you want to go, then you have to build past yourself. You have to build a team of people. And that really comes down to what I would consider like indirect revenue, uh, versus direct. And this is where I think a lot of people struggle because they might say, okay, well, but yeah, I can make, I can make 200, 000.

Seeing everybody myself, keeping my overhead really low and like not have a whole lot of other stuff to try to figure out. Um, and that's cool, but that's like, what are you making per hour? You can figure that out pretty easily. Then if you can kind of whittle it down and let's say you build to where you're at and you have this clinic that let's say made to move is that like a seven figure [00:32:00] practice and you're spending 10 hours a week on that.

And all of these other people are running the systems in this, this business that you've created. Well, what's your, what's your hourly, you know, reimbursement associated with that, as well as being able to do that from anywhere you want. What's that worth? It's very hard to quantify some of these things, but it just depends on what the person wants and what their ideal life looks like, you know, and, uh, maybe not everybody wants to do that.

I'll, I'll, you know, be on that long. Like, that's not really something that my family is, is something that we're super interested in doing, but we like to travel. When we get time off from school, right? Like for instance, we're heading to Hawaii on Friday and you know, your family is as well. And if I have a lifestyle business, nothing, no revenues generated during that time.

So I can just prep for that and maybe save a bunch of money and, you know, and just know that for a couple of weeks, I'm going to have zero income coming in. Um, or Like when we're gone, uh, there will be revenue generated in [00:33:00] multiple businesses without us necessarily doing a thing directly. And no one, honestly, if no one talks to me for the next two weeks, while I'm gone, I'm fine with that.

In fact, I hope that happens, uh, because things at this point in a lot of ways run better when other people are just doing their thing and, uh, no, they need no oversight because we have professionals that, that get a chance to work with us. Like when I look at ideal lifestyle. You know, the ability to be able to travel is important location independence.

Maybe it isn't the most important thing for us, but the ability to have, you know, non direct revenue and, um, you know, and, and work with really, really talented people was always something that was super important to me as we continue to, uh, to grow. And, you know, you only have to go on vacation enough times where you have no income coming in or get sick enough times where you have no income coming in, where you might really start to look at, damn, is this really the safe place to be, or are you putting yourself in a more risky position by being the.

Only person, literally the only person that is, uh, accounts for your [00:34:00] family's income potentially, because if that's the case, I would get heavily insured in a number of levels, you know, both for short term long term and life insurance and disability insurance. In case that does happen, because. You're one accident away from your family having no income and that always really actually sketched me out quite a lot

Yves: Yeah, and I think it's worth noting too.

We're not talking even about that Does everybody have to get to like a seven? giant practice with multiple providers and admin like We kind of know that this sweet spot is like you as the owner You know two three four clinicians and maybe an admin person and you can make a very Healthy amount of money, you know and have enough to pay off loans pour into other you know um Real estate or the stock market, whatever your, you know, investor DNA is there.

But like, and that's the cool part. Right. And so like, we're not saying you've got to be this massive company with multiple clinics. Like maybe you do, that's fine. But it's also like, you can still stay like, that's [00:35:00] still a really small business if you think about like, it's very manageable for people, um, to do that.

Right. And that can give you, like you said, this layer of, uh, safety, consistency. I mean, let's, let's say one drawback. I'll see. I wonder what you think of this. You know, I was talking to my kids the other day and they're like, well, you're going to take time off in Hawaii. And like, you know, I was like, I can't, if you're like a W2 or maybe even a lifestyle business, you probably could completely unhook.

Right. We're like, you don't have to worry about anything, especially, especially as a W2 employee. So like, if there maybe is a drawback, it's that, yeah, I am still on, right. There's still a piece of me that just needs to still have a heartbeat on the business. Although if you run it well, like you said, you know, a lot of times.

You being gone only hurts, you know, helps the business not hurts it, right? So that's a potential downside But ultimately the lifestyle that I want to live like you said is more location dependent bigger [00:36:00] impact You know time freedom and I'm willing to kind of sacrifice that to to kind of always have to be you know The person in charge and ultimately if something goes wrong, I do need to I've had on vacation sometimes Had to make a phone call because, you know, there was a noise complaint in one of my offices and I had to talk to the landlord.

Right. So these things happen, but yeah, well worth it in my opinion.

Danny: Yeah. But I think there's, there's a huge difference between building true location independence and wanting to be able to work from wherever you want, because there's, that's not really, um, it's not the same thing as taking a vacation for a couple of weeks.

And, um, and, you know, and, and wanting to disconnect because like, if you go somewhere for, let's say three months, you're in a lot of ways, like you're still, you're just working from somewhere else. Now you might be able to dictate the terms of what your day looks like. So it's almost like you're on like pseudo vacation all the time, but it doesn't mean that you're, you are, um.

You know, completely [00:37:00] unplugged the whole time either, which has its pros and cons, right? Cause some people that might be something that is challenging for them. I could you imagine Jared doing that? Like our, our one business partner is, you know, he is like laser focused in a very specific place in his house and he's ultra productive.

And if you take him out of that environment, he starts to get a little, a little cranky. You know, he'll get a little frustrated, you know, and so like that would actually, I think, stress him out terribly, uh, to be in these different places. And, but for you, it's a fit, it makes a lot of sense, um, for what you want to do.

So, you know, and I, I think that, um, you're right. You don't also need to have this massive business. Cause I think people look at this and they're like, oh, I have to have this multiple locations and all these providers and stuff. I'm like to, to really. Feel like there's a reason to want to scale, you know, past, uh, past yourself.

But to your point, a couple of providers, one office, like you could have what we kind of consider this sort of sweet spot, which is between 500, 000 and a million dollars, you know, sometimes more just depends on how [00:38:00] many people you have. And if I'm just talking one office, um, and you have a small team that you can manage, you know, I'll tell you like, you know, uh, just had a conversation yesterday with a provider, uh, that we work with in, um.

You know, in the mastermind and we were kind of breaking down numbers on where this person is at. Um, and real numbers, 70, 000 top line last month. So may was, was it 70, uh, their overhead was about 45, 000. So that doesn't, and that doesn't include what this person's paying themselves. So just like rent and all their, uh, people and, you know, expenses for running the business about 45 grand.

And so that means net. Is going to be roughly 300, 000 a year for this provider to run this business that he, he really enjoys and wants to do so for, you know, a long period of time and can just chill at that, at that stage, uh, and doesn't have to have a lot of stress associated with trying to scale past that.

Right. So, and they're only treating like. Five to eight people a [00:39:00] week, right? So very minimally they're not actually producing a lot of revenue for the clinic directly And now they're more in a leadership role and and and really growing the company So like that's kind of we're talking about but for a lot of people they'll look at that and they might think the exchange It's an extra a hundred thousand dollars, which is a lot of money, but maybe for you, the exchange and the risk and the additional sort of steps you have to go through might not be worth it versus staying really small and you're just doing all the work yourself.

And, and, and maybe you want to do that. And I think it really comes down to also what stage of life are you in? You know, because for some people, if they're in this. Their kids are young. And I mean, for me, this is when we started, my kids were tiny and you know, it's sketchy to have this unpredictable revenue and to take on debt and grow and all that, that we did.

It's very stressful, uh, to do that. And maybe for you, there's a certain stage in your life that doesn't make as much sense as, as later or, or whatever. Cause it's not like you can't go from a lifestyle business to a. [00:40:00] You, you can do it later. Uh, you can also decide to go smaller if you're like, you know what?

This isn't for me. Let everybody go. You can always transition kind of in between. It just depends on where you're at in your life. And, and if it's the right stage for you to make some of those changes, um, or make, make some of those decisions to, to grow. So I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind.

Don't make yourself feel bad because maybe your context is a little different. If you, you just had a couple of kids where somebody has no kids and they have no. Responsibilities. And they're just like trying to kill himself to grow a business as fast as they can. Like you're not in the same boat.

Yves: Yeah.

And I think it's also just challenging where we are at in the profession or where we're at in what performance hybrid cash physical therapy is, is like, they're probably just running all the options, right? If somebody just wants to be like a physical therapist in the clinician somewhere. I mean, although just by the way, like People in our mastermind are literally hiring all the time.

Like every month there's like, they're just dying for people. But regardless, it is like, if you look at on grand scale, there's not like a ton of these [00:41:00] things. So it's like, they kind of have a choice. Sometimes I think, and you know, let's call it later stages in life. And they just want to be a clinician.

They want to see patients that may don't have an option in a performance based practice. So they kind of do their own little side hustle thing. And I think that's also potentially like. An option for people who just like they stick and just side hustle mode. Like maybe they just need an additional four to 5, 000 a month.

And that's what they do. I've seen some of that even as well. And I think that's maybe the lifestyle version of this as well, which I think is, is totally valid. You know, they're just like, Hey, I want to. See some patients and I know this is the way I want to do it. I don't really have another option. So here it is, but you know, obviously we're working very hard to change that where, you know, hopefully it becomes a norm to get a performance based PRN job anywhere, just like it is in a regular outpatient job.

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I think that you're right. There's. You can find jobs like this too. This is not what you want to do and start your own thing, which is totally normal. By the way, I think most of us, that's what we would probably have done if we could have really found a spot where we feel like we could have worked, [00:42:00] um, the way we wanted to, but you know, the, the other thing, and this is something that sort of piggybacks off the conversation Jared and I had last week about the financial sort of aspects of looking at.

at your business. And the one thing that he said that I thought was really interesting, if you haven't listened to that podcast or seen that, that, that live stream, um, you know, head back to, uh, the, the prior week, which I guess would be like June or May 31st. Um, and he says, you know, like really. The, the changes happened with him is to go from looking at just purely cash to also looking at, uh, net worth decisions.

So, and this is, this has been an interesting paradigm shift for me too. Over the last couple of years, I started spending more time around people that are, uh, would be considered like very high net worth individuals and they, their decisions are a lot of times made off of net worth and net worth is really your, you know, your assets minus your liabilities.

And when you build [00:43:00] a business. Just that's just you. It's frankly worth nothing. Uh, you're just doing all the work you're fulfilling on everything. And, and there's not really a lot of value there because nothing's being produced without you doing it. So who's going to buy that? Um, you know, unless they're going to work directly in it themself and take that over.

And even still, it's not worth a whole lot versus if you build a business past yourself that someone could come in and run or an investor can buy. And he could have the team continue to run that business all the, all of a sudden it has what's called enterprise value. So when you think of enterprise value, you got to think of.

Uh, the valuation or the, the value of what the company would be worth if you were to sell it. And this is a sneaky number because in a lot of ways it's hard to calculate, but also you don't see it like a, like if you, let's say you're investing in Apple stock. Every month, you could just look at your, you know, your balance at your brokerage account and say, Oh, now I have this much Apple stock.

It's worth X amount. And I could sell it tomorrow if I wanted to do that, [00:44:00] because there's people that are willing to buy it from you. Well, with a private company, you don't have that. So you sort of have to calculate yourself and keep an idea of what that is. But just to give you a rough estimate, like for a lot of these service businesses, you know, one X.

Of what you're generating on the top line is just a very simple gauge of what that business could potentially be worth. It could be worth more or less than that, depending on a lot of factors, but if you're just thinking, okay, well, let me calculate that as a net worth enterprise value, you know, sort of a touch point of where I'm at on the financial side.

You cannot have that. With the lifestyle business, as you grow enterprise value, like this example of what I talked about, this practice is, you know, just under a million. Um, you know, if that was their monthly, say their monthly was like 70 grand, you know, that's an eight, 900, 000, uh, enterprise value that person has on their hands that they could sell one day.

If they decide they want to exit, they decide they want to, uh, move on to something else, or maybe they want to retire and, and they, you know, run it from there. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of. Uh, value you're [00:45:00] creating that you're not creating if you just stay small. So don't forget the fact that what you're building has value.

You just don't see it the same way that maybe you would see it if you were investing in somebody else's company.

Yves: Yeah. I think, I mean, another goal of ours, I think is not only just to. Give people the avenue and the road map of how to build their own business, you know, in a performance based cash and hybrid model.

But I think a big thing that we've been talking about a lot is just increasing people's financial IQ, right? And so like, you know, we're talking about net worth, we're talking about cash flow and pouring things in other areas. And, uh, you know, if this goes over people's heads, like I think it's something they need to educate themselves on.

But I mean, ultimately you're right, you know, like we both. Never thought we could sell a cash practice. We both did, you know, very successfully. Right. And like, I have now seen practices who are lifestyle businesses and they, frankly, I've seen gyms that are like that as well as, uh, practices, clinical practices, and they just start.

They're worth anything, which would be really, [00:46:00] really frustrating. Right. And so if you get to the point where even if you have two or three clinicians and you have an admin, you've got some systems built in. Yeah. You've got enterprise value. Right. And that can provide you income for, for years. And I think people do, you know, tend to, to forget that.

Like we, it feels just like you said, too elusive, like who's going to buy this. You know, and if I was a betting person, like What we're doing in the performance based world is only going to like the increase we've seen is exponential and it's not going to stop like we're now seeing maybe not private equity, but we're seeing hospitals getting into this.

So, like, it's going to be very valuable. So, you know, now you're pouring into something instead of a 401k cool. I can put money in a 401k, but also I can put money in my business. And all of a sudden I have an asset that will give me 500, 000 potentially, like, you know. If it's payments up front, payment over time, whatever, you're going to get that, uh, revenue afterwards.

Right. And so that's not including the cash flow you get while you're in the business. So, you know, it's just like, you know, slowly kind [00:47:00] of realizing that, you know, some of these decisions are like, like you said, network decisions are very long term decisions. Like it's very much about like, what is this going to look like for me in the next 20, 30 years?

And sometimes I think it's tough for us to, to talk about that or think about that. We want to just want to like, what, how does this help me now? I got student debt. I'm trying to do that. Right. But like, Yeah. Man, this is a huge asset, you know, that will make your life a lot easier later down the road.

Danny: Well, for sure, you know, and it's, it's not even necessarily just the sale side of it.

Let's say you don't want to do that. And you're like, no, I just have no interest in that, but you might not have, uh, a lot of interest. Let's say you're running one of these businesses for a decade. And all of a sudden you're like, you know what? I really want to take a step back because I'm interested in this.

Other project, whatever it might be. I have a patient, um, that was like super long term patient of mine. And he had four or five different companies and they were all kind of around the same. Um, it was like real estate technology sort of vein. And he'd started [00:48:00] one that does like virtual. Tours for homes.

And then off the back of that, there was like another one and another one or all that, whatever. And he still owned the vast majority of all these companies, but he had a partner in place that he had, that was a employee that they had worked with, you know, and they had turned out to be awesome and became a great operator in the company and had ownership in that company and, and he would help.

Facilitate and manage that company on a small scale, uh, while the, the team was running and a lot of times still growing. So if you, if you look at this idea of financial freedom, right? It really is when you're the non active revenue outpaces your expenses. There's a couple of ways to do that. You can either really decrease your expenses, you know, you just live, you know, super, super lean, uh, and you can build up revenue and other ways.

Um, non active revenue that could be from real estate, uh, you know, rents that could be from dividends from a stock or a, uh, an index bond or ETF or something that could be [00:49:00] from, you know, private investments that you're making in other people's companies. That could be your own company that's putting off.

You know, uh, profit every single month. And if you're not really doing anything directly for that, then that's considered non active revenue or passive revenue, right? So a vehicle to do that really is to build a business like this, to build a system that people can run without you having to be directly involved.

And then, you know, if you can work a few hours a month on maintaining what you're trying to do, that business or mentoring your leadership team. All of a sudden you've put yourself in a place. It's very rare where people can actually have a financial freedom from the vehicle of a business that they put a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears into doing.

It's not like you can just do that easily. It does take effort, but it's a, an option that a lot of people I see trending that direction that own these types of businesses. They're looking for financial security, long time, long term, and maybe not a huge pay day all at once, um, because they like being involved still, but they don't want to be involved a hundred percent day to day [00:50:00] and they maybe have other interests.

So something to think about as you are building past this, it's like, well, what is, is it really worth all the extra risk and effort? And maybe if it takes some loans on to build out a space and all that. Um, and again, I think that decision is individual. For me, it was very worth doing. I'm very glad I did it.

Um, you know, for other people, maybe they want to stay small. Uh, but either way, like you have to think of these bigger picture sort of. Financial as well as impact goals that you might have, because you just can't have as much of an impact staying small as you can hiring four or five other people that can treat people the same way you can, and really help get these amazing outcomes.

And there's a lot of Like that's the other thing to keep in mind. There's a ton of people out there that don't even know we exist and they're starting to be more aware of the type of practices we have, which I think is awesome. Um, so they need our help. So it's just up to you in terms of what impact you want to provide or not.

Yves: Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, I was like, We're supposed to be doing some kind of pros and cons, right? So I'll try to like say some cons, uh, or like a reason maybe [00:51:00] you wouldn't want to scale, uh, if it's not necessarily a lifestyle thing, it may even just be like a mental health thing. You know what I mean?

Like we've definitely shared our stories about our struggles with, uh, you know, that we've had as we built the business. And that's something that I am though, like now. Just super grateful for because it just challenges you in so many ways, right? And like, it has made me better father, better person, better friend, you know, all these things.

And I would never take that back. But there are just some people that, and I have seen it, who are just like, they get into it and it's just like, I think they're just not ready at that time. And maybe, you know, Eventually will be or maybe they won't like, you know, there's definitely, uh, that side that you've just got to be very cognizant of and you've got to, uh, put time and energy into and it never kind of goes away.

Right? Just something we've always got to balance out and be careful of because if you want to talk to me, you know, 10 years ago and told me where I'm at now, you know, yeah. Or even just would have taken the person I was then and put me into [00:52:00] this role right now, it would break me like, you know, I would like slowly I have developed this muscle that is just can take on the amount of, let's be frank pressure, you know, and stress that is involved with running multiple businesses and bigger businesses like we have, um, and it's stressful, but I'll say it again, like the self development, personal development along the way.

Is there, I haven't found a better way to do it yet. You know, uh, maybe a lot of therapy, but, um, you know, uh, we're combining that with some of our stuff anyway. So, yeah, I think maybe that's a con, you know, like I'm not sure though. Just a discussion point. Maybe. No, no. And

Danny: I think it also, not everybody's wired the same way too.

Right. So for some people, they, I mean, if they could just like kind of do their own thing and make it really simple and, um, I mean, there's still a lot of work involved. Like I worked more when I was doing my own thing, just by myself, right. Then, then I do now, honestly, you know, and, and [00:53:00] there's a lot more going on, but the direct work is a lot more.

So you gotta keep that in mind. It's, it's not like it goes away and it can start to feel like it's weighing you down after a few years too. Um, I can imagine I didn't do it for a decade, but I can imagine you have for like a decade and. Like the, the work capacity just doesn't really change. It's, it's still, still challenging, but any job is, let's be honest.

It's just not as, uh, you know, it's just maybe a little bit more stressful than, than working for somebody else. But I think that one of the things for me, and maybe for people listening to this, they might, they might resonate if you have a similar view is, you know, I always say, I think of two things I think of, okay, if I go back in time and tell like little Danny Matei, who's like eight years old or something, what I'm up to today.

Probably be pretty fucking excited about that. You know, he'd probably be, I'd be like, that's awesome. Like, you're telling me that's what life's going to look like. And I said, yeah, dude, like, don't worry. Everything's going to be cool. Like don't [00:54:00] stress out so much about whatever. Then on the flip side, I think, well, what is it?

What about like 98 year old Danny Matei, right? If I. And I look back and it's like, what do I need to do now to really be like super proud of where I ended up and staying small and not challenging myself in a way that I felt compelled to do so. Seemed like avoidance of something that I would have at least wanted to know if I could have done it or not.

You know, like that, that's, that I think the regret of not even trying would have really been hard for me just to, to tolerate, um, because I had this, I had this, uh, just internal drive to want to see. If I was, uh, competent enough to build a business past myself, if I was competent enough to, you know, really be able to, uh, take a, take a crack at building something like that, that's, that is very hard to do.

And, um, and, and I just, I just feel like I would have felt very, uh, you know, frustrated because you can't go [00:55:00] back and do those after a certain stage, you know, and so for me, some of it was also thinking, all right, well, these two different people that live on the polar opposites of, of my lifespan, You know, one helps me feel grateful for where I am, but one also helps me realize that like, don't be a little bitch and play small, you know, and don't be afraid of like things that challenge you, uh, because you get one shot.

And when you're that old, what are you going to do? You know, he's like, you can't go back. So I think that perspective for me is what I try to keep. And it's something that I keep, you know, in, in, in my mind, at least. Uh, so that was a big part of the decision for me to make. That was just, I didn't want to be fear avoidant and not do something because I just was scared that I might not be able to do it.

Yeah. I think,

Yves: uh, I don't know if it was Tim Ferris. Hey, Ray Dalio, like one of them where it's like, write your own obituary, right. And see what kind of comes forth of that. And that's kind of what you're talking about. It's like, do you want to, you know, at the end of your life, do you want to say, Hey, I [00:56:00] did everything I could to, you know, lead, lead a fulfilled life, you know, in these areas.

And for us, I do think. It sounds so cliche, but it's like, it is kind of a calling. Right. And so I always talked to him as like an itch. Like, it's just like this itch you've kind of always had. And, you know, if you didn't really listen to that, you would be really, really frustrated. Right. And so, you know, and it goes back to what you said, like, what's your ideal life look like?

Like, where, what kind of purpose do you want to have? And if you feel like it aligns with it. Yeah. You know, helping more people. That's great because I do know people. It's still it's so hard, right? Because we're so perceived like my perception is my reality. I will go down in that role. But like, there are probably people who have a W two employee love their milk clinic.

See two to three patients at a time. Love the back and forth. Like I had a stage where it was like that. Maybe there's just like they do that for a decade or two. They love it. They have other areas of their life. Maybe they like painting or like, you know, they love coaching and that's just the life they lead.

There's got, there's definitely lots of people out there. And so, [00:57:00] you know, that's great for them, but if you've got this itch or this calling or this something for more, right? Like I think you owe it to yourself, like you said, to try, right? Because I say this, I feel like on every podcast is that like, go for it.

Try, because at least in our profession right now, the entry point's really low. The likelihood that if it doesn't work and you need another job, the likelihood you get it is. 100%. I don't know. It's probably 100%. Right. So I think you owe it yourself to try.

Danny: Yeah. And I will, we can leave it, you know, uh, at this and we'll wrap it up.

And, and, uh, and the one thing that, to your point that, that I would, uh, Sort of, I guess, follow on with that is for me, I've found like the last few years, the things that I read, I, I'm very interested in just, um, you know, philosophy and different sort of, uh, [00:58:00] different groups of, you know, uh, religious, you know, sort of, uh, groups, uh, uh, spiritual beliefs, all kinds of, I just, I find this stuff just kind of interesting.

Like, what do people think about these big questions that no one really has answers for? Right. And, um, I've kind of always found that interesting, but, uh, I just, instead of me just reading about business and health and wellness. And so, so I, I try to turn my attention a bit to some of that thing that, and one thing that I've found, because I would get frustrated with people that didn't want to really like push themselves, right?

That, that are just like totally fine with just being what I would consider average is that that is just a really bad way of looking at. Other people, uh, because there's different views and one of, one of them, if you, if you look at, like, I've been learning a lot more about sort of the, the Buddhist view of, uh, the world.

And they talk about this concept of seekers and how there's like people that are seekers. And I think of it, like they're seekers and there's chillers. The people here are just a chill. They're just here to coast. And they're just [00:59:00] like, and that doesn't mean they're not happy. That means they're content as fuck.

And it's something that I genuinely. Uh, envy people that can just, you know, go to a job, have hobbies, enjoy just watching football games with their friends and, uh, and just coast, you know, and just like same bill through their life. And I find myself realizing that I'm much more of a seeker, which has.

Unique benefits and unique drawbacks. And I think you need to understand yourself first, because if I try to be a chiller and I'm a seeker, I'm going to be very unhappy. Um, and if you're a, if you're here to chill and you're trying to really progress and do all this crazy stuff, you're going to be really unhappy.

That's incongruent with the way that we're wired. Um, so you gotta know that number one. And if you are a seeker, like there's probably very few people listening to this that are just here to chill. Like if you're here and you're like, man, I want to learn, I want to [01:00:00] progress. I have these goals. I want to challenge myself.

Guess what? You're a seeker. You're, you're like us. You know, you're trying to figure out what you're supposed to do. You're trying to figure out what you can do in the world. And you can't unring that bell. You can try to fight it all you want. You can, you can silence it. You can. Push it down, but eventually it's going to start to eat away at you.

And you're going to have to do something about it, whether it's this vehicle or some other one where you're progressing significantly or trying to grow. Um, because it just is part of the way that we're wired. And for me, like I've come to that conclusion and acceptance of that, like I just can't be a certain person.

I have to be who, the way that I am. And, uh. And that's, that's fine. Like, cause I like the way that my life is set up. And, um, there's definitely a lot of evolution and change and it's never just like steady, but, um, it's just what feels right. And, you know, so I think the first thing you should really think about is deep down, like, what do you think you want to accomplish while you're here?

Which of those categories do you feel like you fall into? Cause that's probably going to change dramatically. What you decide to do with your career and what you feel happy doing or not. [01:01:00] Yeah.

Yves: So if you're a seeker, I feel like this would be helpful for a lot of people too. If you feel like you've got that calling and that itch, you know, what I see holds a lot of people back are false beliefs basically, right?

Like somebody coming in as a patient and saying, Hey, my back will never feel better. You know, it's just the way it is. And we obviously as clinicians can be like, Hey, well, here's these things that you can do and break some of these false beliefs around, you know, uh, Whatever that may be. And I think that's part of it too.

So sometimes it's just like, you know, looking internally and realizing, okay, cool. I am this type of person. I want more, you know, what false beliefs am I holding, holding me back, right? It could be pricing. It could be imposter syndrome. It could be all these things. Like, I feel like a lot of the things that.

We've done, and we say we're challenging as personal development. It's really just been working through whatever false beliefs I have. Like, Oh man, I can never start my own thing. Oh, I can never grow past myself. Oh man, I could never, you know, do this and, um, you know, coach other. [01:02:00] Clinicians one day, like, Oh, I could never run multiple, you know, seven figure, but it's like, it's just, it's just false.

Please have false belief. Just kind of being proven wrong. And I think, uh, identifying what those are would be huge and then going to seek out ways to counter those false beliefs. Like, by still step one forever was I didn't know this was really possible. Coming to your clinic one day and be like, Oh man, this is possible, right?

Like Danny's not that special. This is awesome. You know what I mean? I mean, you're special. I, you know, you're my friend, but

Danny: I mean, cause I remember sitting at lunch with you and you're like, you just kind of talk to people and I go, I guess it's you. You know, I, I didn't know, uh, whatever, whatever I was doing or not doing, it just was like, uh, the way that I was working with people.

And, uh, I remember, yeah, you were like, that's interesting. People pay for that. And I go, yeah. And they come back, you know, it's, uh, you know, whatever it is. So like, I do think it's, it's so important to be able to see, uh, the beliefs you have get broken. And if that's really what you want to, you know, strive to, to [01:03:00] do, that's one of the more valuable things that comes down to people like, uh, us when it comes to the business side of things.

I love when people meet me, cause I know they're going to be like. This guy isn't, is he, he's skinnier than I thought. He definitely isn't as smart as I thought. And if he can do this, why can't I, you know, it's like, yeah, okay, exactly. Like that's, that's a huge takeaway for a lot of people is they, they take this sort of pedestal they put people on and they realize like this person is just like me.

What the hell? And look at this. Like I can do this too.

Yves: Huge. Absolutely huge.

Danny: Well, hopefully this is helpful. I feel like this is a big decision for people to make. And, um, again, I just would leave it with, there's no right answer for everybody. You know, it's, it's, uh, there's no one fit. It's very dependent on what you want to do.

Depending on your lifestyle, depending on what you want, you know, what season of life you're in. And, um, even if you decide like, man, I just, I just want to stay small, like that's still a huge [01:04:00] accomplishment. Like you shouldn't feel bad about that one bit. It's a very hard thing to do. Um, and, uh, I have a lot of respect for anybody, anybody that's ever started a business or decides they want to do that.

I just know how challenging it is. And, and, um. I, uh, instantly give people like a bit more credibility, like even if I just meet them, they're like, Oh, you have your own business. Like I instantly am just like, you get a little more respect for me immediately. Cause I at least know that you can eat some shit for a long period of time and that you're a resilient person.

Like I appreciate that about people. So either way, whether you say small, you go big, hopefully this helps. And, um, you know, I think, uh, I think it's just up to you decide what you want to do.

Yves: Yeah, just give your chance, just allow yourself the flexibility of, of what may happen next for you, you know, like, I know that sounds a little, but I think that's very important to just say like, Hey man, what, what could be next for me, you know, and exploring those options.

I feel like, um, you know, a lot of this stuff starts there.

Danny: Cool. All right. That's the end, end of the podcast. We'll catch you guys next week.[01:05:00]

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