E606 | Should You Hire Family and Friends?

In this episode, Dr. Danny delves into the topic of working with family and friends. He shares his personal experience of working with his wife in their practice and how they were able to divide and conquer by utilizing their skills and strengths. Dr. Danny recommends taking the Rocket Fuel assessment to determine if you and your spouse have complementary skills before considering working together. 

The discussion also covers working with family and friends within a business, as is the case with Dr. Danny's own PT Biz. He emphasizes the importance of hiring family members based on their skills and traits and not just because they are family.

The pros and cons of working with family and friends are discussed in detail, including the benefits of trust, ownership level efforts, and ease of finding employees. However, the cons include the potential for less professionalism, blurred lines between friend and boss, and difficulties when it comes to termination. 

Danny advises listeners to be careful not to let family members be demeaning in a work setting and to consider how they are perceived in the present versus the past. Ultimately, the decision to work with family and friends is a personal one that should be based on careful consideration.

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: Hey, real quick, before we get started, head over to Facebook and join the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group. If you haven't done so yet, we have monthly live trainings going on there. There's an opportunity for you to join in the conversation instead of just listening to what I have to say on this podcast, as well as the people that I bring on.

And it's a really cool place to join about 6, 000 other clinicians that are. Honestly, trying to change the landscape of our profession through these cash and hybrid practices. One other thing that's really cool is we have a guide in there. That's a quick start guide. When you join, you can go and check this out.

There's about seven videos that we've curated that are the most common questions we get in the best case studies that we've found to really help you start, grow, and scale your practice up to seven figures. So if you haven't done so yet, head to Facebook request to join the PT entrepreneurs Facebook group.

You have to be a clinician. We're going to check you out. We don't just let anybody in. But if you are, Hey there, go ahead, get signed up. We'd love to have the conversation with you in that group.

So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us who don't want to see 30 patients a day, who don't want to work home health and have real student loans, create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about? This is the question. And this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Matei.

And welcome to the PT entrepreneur podcast.

What's going on? Doc Danny here with the PT entrepreneur podcast. And today we are talking about the pros and cons of working with your friends and your family. Now I have worked with. Both my friends and family to this point, and I want to share a little bit of my experience with this, but also what I see from many of the coaching clients that we work with that are growing their businesses and, some success stories as well as some not so great.

Lessons learned, from people that have seen the, more of the cons of this, these relationships than the pros. Let me start with this. The very first business partner that I had was my wife. We were married for, oh my gosh, let me think about this. I should know this, eight years.

Nine years, eight years. She's going to listen to this eight years when we have restarted our business. So we had been married for that long prior to even starting our business. So it's not like we had just gotten married. We'd been together for, 10 years total before that. All before starting our business.

So we were partners in everything at that point, it just so happened that as. We opened our practice and as I got busier, Ashley looked at what her career was, which was in the nonprofit world. We looked at the cost of babysitter or the cost of daycare for two young kids. And it basically was a wash, the amount of money that she could make in the nonprofit world doing what she does.

And. What it would cost us to have two kids in, full time, daycare it, we basically were, would make zero money off of that. So show would be a complete wash. So as we looked at that, it was like, okay maybe that's not the right thing to do right now. And let's start utilizing, the skillset that she had and applying it to our practice.

And to be honest with you, it's the best thing that ever happened to our business. Everyone told us. I got this advice from everybody. Don't work with your spouse. It's a bad idea, except for one person, one person, and that's Kelly's Tourette. He said, you and your spouse have a complimentary skills.

It's going to be the best thing you could possibly do is work together. It's going to improve your relationship. It's going to improve the business. And he had met Ashley and he was like, I think she's a killer. I think she's going to do awesome. And he has worked with his wife, Juliette together on the different companies that they have now for quite some time.

And he's he was absolutely right for our practice. It was the perfect fit for what we were looking for. Ashley is a very detail oriented, organized operations driven person. She's slow to want to make changes and to make decisions that are important. Great at managing people. I, everything I just said about her, I'm the opposite of I'm very, I'm fast to make changes.

I don't think about these sort of second and third order consequences that can happen from that. I'm not super organized when it comes to. Almost anything and, but what I am good at is this thing is she things that she wasn't good at. Like she didn't like selling. She didn't like marketing.

She didn't like creating content, getting out, being forward facing in a business. So you know, for us, we were able to divide and conquer and it really was. The best working relationship that I could have hoped for it now, granted their stress in any business. So did that create stress in our in our relationship?

Sure. But it's not, it's not that much different than other stressors that you have. I just got out of the military, right? We were stressed about where are we going to live? Am I going to deploy? What's, yeah. What are the things that are going to happen? What job am I going to, am I going to have?

Are they even gonna, let us take these roles that we want? There's just so many, so much unknown in that environment that it's hard to say that there was any different in terms of level of stress, it was a different type of stress, but at least we had control for the most part of what we were doing and how we were doing it.

In that scenario, and I think for a lot of people that are clinicians. That start businesses and start cash based practices, hybrid practices, whatever you're doing. If you and your spouse have complimentary skills, it can work extremely well for you to work together. If you are the same person, if you guys are very similar in terms of what type of skillset you have and work that you enjoy doing.

I think it's actually a really bad idea because you're going to step on each other's toes. You're going to frustrate each other. And what you really need is somebody to offset you. So if you don't have that person, you still want to work together. You're gonna have to hire that person because otherwise somebody that should be forward facing is going to have.

To turn into an operations person. And that's going to cause a lot of stress for that person. And, that probably will get disgruntled because of it. They're going to get frustrated. So something to think about as you're thinking about your spouse, one easy thing to do that I really would recommend if you're thinking about working with your spouse or really any other business partner, you can go to do the rocket fuel assessment, which is a book that was written by a guy named Gino Wickman, and it's all about this idea of integrators and visionaries.

And these are the two different sort of subtypes of people that work really well together. And what you don't want is two integrators, and you don't want two visionaries, right? So visionaries are more forward facing people like myself, which the name sounds cooler than an integrator. It's just the way they named it.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but one definitely sounds cooler than the other. And an implementer is somebody that's more systems driven. They're more organized, and they're really... They're really the glue that holds a business together while the visionary is running around trying to build this vision of what they have.

The integrator is like piecing it all together on the backend. So it doesn't fall apart. And you need, you really need both of those. In my experience with my spouse, at least in that business. It has worked extremely well and I would totally do it all over again if I could go back and and start again.

So now onto pros and cons, because this might not be your spouse. This might be your brother in law. This might be your sister in law. This might be your brother. This might be your father in law. This might be any number of people. And I'm going to tell you, with us with PT biz, we actually have quite a few.

Family connections. So Ashley is still involved in that. She manages a part of that business. Especially as far as like how internal referrals go and customer experience side of things. We also have my brother in law who works for PT Biz. He actually manages this podcast. He does a lot of sales and marketing for us within that.

We have one of my business partners, father in law. Who works for us in the advisory side of things, he was a a VP of sales at big companies before we we actually were able to hire him a couple of years ago. And actually even that same business partner, his dad does all of our swag, all of our welcome boxes and all that.

Also my other business partner, his wife runs events for us. So we're very interconnected as far as. Family is concerned within that business. And the reason that we have done that and that we have actually had a lot of success with it is more than anything, we're looking at skills, we're looking at traits, and if somebody happens to have that is also related to us in some way, then we definitely want to give them an opportunity to.

Take on that role or at least compete for that role. For instance, when we brought we were looking for help with events, just so happened that our one business partner, his wife used to run events, big events for special Olympics. And it worked for, a professional soccer team.

Doing events and events, event management, go figure. It's amazing skillset for us to add in. And she comes batteries included because she knows so much about our business. Our, other brother, my brother in law, he already had experience in the digital side of things as far as marketing goes and doing paid doing this podcast for a long time.

He was always, on time doing everything that he said he was going to do great. Intangibles that we're looking for. He was in a job that he didn't really like that much. And he was doing this stuff for us on the side and we had the opportunity to bring him on full time. He's the first person that we gave the opportunity to, and he's crushes it, he's a great member of our team.

We're looking for somebody that already has intangible skills. And if that person happens to be related to us in some way, we're definitely going to take into, the, take that into the equation, but give them an opportunity to really thrive in that role. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you the pros that I really look at this for me that in some ways they can outweigh the cons depends on the person depends on the setting.

So the first big one is trust. So there's a level of trust with a family member in particular that you just do not get with an employee. You just, and not to say that employees have, are doing something wrong or whatever, but the likelihood that your family is going to screw you over is far lower than somebody that that you don't know, assuming your family, assuming it's the family member you'd want to hire.

Let me put it that way. Cause I have plenty of family members that I would never hire ever. So they're the ones that you're picking and choosing, right? So the trust factor, the other thing it means more to them. It means more. Do you get ownership level? Give a fuck factor from these people, ownership level efforts from these people because they are tied in more tightly with you.

They want to see it be successful. They want to be a part of something more successful. They got to go to Christmas dinner with you, and, or see you at Thanksgiving and and talk to everybody else in the family about what's going on. And to it.

They want it to work just as bad as you do in most cases. The next thing they're easier to find in some cases, right? Like I said, for us, we're looking at, okay what things do we need to hire for? Who do we know, or maybe not even family, but what loose connections around us? Do we know people that we like that we think we would really enjoy working with that would be a good cultural fit for our team?

And then we go out and we find those people. And if they're family or they're friends, then it can be great if we know that they come with this skill set already. Built in where we're not necessarily just having to train them up So they're they can be easier to find than just going out onto job posting boards or on linkedin and trying to find people that way which can be a a great alternative as well I'm not saying that's the only way to do it But it is definitely an easier route to go and again the effort you're going to get from them the partner level effort you're going to get from somebody that is a Employee is just you won't get that from people in my experience that are just w 2 employees.

They don't take your Business as seriously as you do and they really, they shouldn't, and they usually never will unless there's like some sort of, obviously financial opportunity that's tied to that, but family and friends, they will, because they just, they care more about it and, you can't really train that into people.

So what are the cons? The cons can be really uncomfortable, right? So number one, they could be less professional. So they might lose what, what, in the military, they always talk about this idea of military bearing. They're like, listen, Captain Matei, don't forget your military bearing.

Which means if I'm going into a room where there's somebody that is a senior officer to me, I'm addressing them in a very specific way. If I am talking to someone that's on my team that is, a noncommissioned officer or something like that, there's a different way in which we might communicate.

If there's a junior enlisted soldier, I might communicate differently with them. You have to understand like how to communicate and be respectful in the right manner in different situations. Same thing has to happen in your business because Your friend for instance, they might think oh i've known this guy since middle school.

I can talk to him Whatever way I would normally talk to him and maybe that's like slightly I wouldn't say disrespectful, but in a way where you wouldn't probably do that with your boss, if they weren't your buddy and to do that, especially in a forward facing setting, like at a meeting or something like that, or an offsite that, that starts to create cultural problems with your business.

And you've got to be very careful to not let that. That, that go on or not create that problem because then people get a bit confused as to how they should be interacting with you and with the other people in the business. And you sure don't want somebody that's trying to check you in person.

And this happens sometimes with friends, more so friends than family because let's say you say something and somebody is vehemently disagreeing with you. There's a big difference between disagreeing or viewing something differently and then just being you know somewhat confrontational with somebody that you might argue with other things about and have argued with plenty of things about Growing up and that's where the friend side can be really challenging So you cannot allow somebody to be demeaning towards you as a authority figure within your business especially in meeting settings and i've Now seeing this with clients of ours that have had friends that they've hired.

And, as that person starts to get a little frustrated with maybe some of the decisions that person is making, the owner is making. They voice that in a way that is somewhat disrespectful and all that professional because they're their friend and you either got to take him to the side and look, we can't do that anymore.

And if you do we're not going to be working together and just be like, have a very direct conversation. Or, you're going to have to figure out what you want your culture to look like because you cannot have people that are just making you look like you don't know what you're doing in front of the people that are paid by you, right?

They start to question whether they're their company is the right fit for them as well. So be very careful because there can be a lower level of professionalism associated with it. They can view you more as a friend. Then a boss. And again, it comes back to this, right? They view you as, Oh, you're the guy that we used to, I used to play Mario cart with and, we're, we were drinking all the time together versus the person that you are fast forward, 10, 15 years later, where you're at now, right?

Like where you might've been in like high school, college to where you are now can be very different in terms of, how you're perceived. And you just think about this whenever you go home with your family, right? If you're a clinician, cannot treat your own family. I can't tell you how many times I've had my family asked me for advice on things and they just completely ignore what I'm saying because they don't assume that I actually know what I'm talking about from a physical injury standpoint, right?

You can't treat your own family and yet you could give that same advice to somebody else and they take it very seriously and we'll pay you 250 an hour for it, right? Like it's funny how that works, but the way in which they view you is, the way they view us as. How they, who they grew up with, right?

So keep that in mind. And I've had this with friends of mine too. Like I have a friend that's, he's a Lieutenant Colonel in the army, in the infantry. It's super, super squared away guy has, legitimate military street cred. Like he's accomplished some pretty impressive things. And yet I can't, every time I think about this guy, I think about how right before he went to basic training, this is when I was in college, I watched him lose the last 50 to his name.

gambling, doing online poker gambling. And he was sleeping on a recliner in my living room for two weeks before basic training. Cause he had no money. That's the guy I think of and yet, but now I guarantee you his soldiers don't think of him that way that he has so much more, he's so much different.

And, but yet I look at him and I'm like, yep, I know who that is. It's the guy that lost all his money, playing online poker and living in my living room and sleeping on a recliner. That's what people get with you whenever you work with friends and if they can't see how you've evolved and changed.

And they're going to always treat you in the same light. So that can be a challenging thing to deal with. The undermining tone is the other thing that you get from. Friends and family sometimes where, you know, the thing that they probably wouldn't say to their boss, if they weren't related to them, they might say to you or they might speak to you differently, or they might say things that you really don't appreciate and ways that you don't appreciate it.

And again, this is something that you have to, as a leader really do a good job of checking this. If you started to know that happened or noticing that happening. As soon as you possibly can, because it is going to create quite a bit of animosity and confusion for your team. The other thing that I've seen is that friends and sometimes family, but more so friends and family, they will get they will have resentment for the success that you might have.

So I'll give you a good example, right? So if let's say someone hires their friend and that person comes in and the business grows while they're there, which. Is the intent of a business when you're starting it is to grow it, right? So that you're have a bigger business that you can hire more people, you can help more people and it's a safer business to own.

Let's say that person assumes, Oh man, I put all this work in while I was here. I, they start to become resentful that you own the business and that they don't own the business. And then they want. Ownership in the business, even though they were hired for a job and got paid the whole time to do that job.

And now they're saying that they deserve part of this business that you have. That's a super hard place to be. And it's a difficult thing to maneuver without ruining that relationship, not just work relationship, but also relationship going forward. And that probably leads to a situation in which that person gets let go.

And those people never talk to each other ever again, because the viewpoint of the person who got hired on and they thought, Oh, cool. I'm like working with my friend, we're building this. I'm working on this together. We're seeing the business grow. That's awesome. And then they started to see that, there's some financial changes that can occur for that business owner. They start calculating how much money that the business is making, if they have probably no idea what the overhead is or what net profit is or how much taxes are or insurance or the risk that person's taking on. And then they just think to themselves, you know what, I deserve part of this business.

And that's a difficult thing to, talk to that person about that. What do you say? You didn't, you don't deserve that because this is your job. You came here and did this. Job, right? If you want to talk about what it looks like in order to be a partner in this business, that's a different conversation.

But what context we're in is you need a job, you have a job, hopefully you like that job and you've done a great job here. So like the end of it, but where your friend can start to think that they have, they deserve something. It's very hard to see eye to eye with that person after that. And typically that ends in nothing positive for either side.

Aside from the fact that yeah, maybe they did help with some of the things in the business But that was also their job. They got hired to do that. So resentment can definitely happen You see this with people when they're like, oh we I view each other as peers It's not like you want to look at an employee as you know less important than yourself But you also don't want to give your company away for any reason besides Someone who legitimately earns it in a sweat equity agreement and somebody who?

buys into it. It's equity. It's the first thing that, that one of my favorite business mentors ever told me. She said, Danny equity is either earned or bought, never ever given away. Don't give your company away. People don't see the struggle, the challenge, the risk that you take the financial sort of challenges you can put yourself in early on.

In a business, what they see is what is existing. Whenever they get hired and they do not discount what your company is worth because it's cost you a lot and it's cost a lot of risks. You don't have this steady paycheck along the way. You could make no money. You could lose money. You could make money certain months.

Like it's very stressful. So take that and be very protective over that. And that can be a challenging thing with friends. And then the last thing is they're hard to fire. It's hard to fire somebody that you have a personal relationship with. How are they supposed to not take it personally?

They will, and it's going to be awkward. And if you are in the same sort of friend groups and now you guys got to get together. At a baseball game or something like that. And this is somebody that you guys just have really no relationship whatsoever. You completely disagree on how things have gone down.

Like you're gonna make that awkward for everybody now, same thing. Apply that to the family side of things and you gotta figure it out there. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people recommend don't work with your friends and family. And, for us, this is the agreement that we've, I've always had with my business partners.

Aside from my, aside from Ashley, I obviously would never fire and. I wouldn't expect that you would do the same with me, is If you bring somebody into the organization, you're going to have to be okay with letting them go as well. Like the first thing that I asked my business partner about when we hired his father in law, I said, are you going to be okay with firing this guy if it doesn't work out because you're the one recommending him and he goes.

Absolutely. No problem. And to be honest, the, the guy that we hired if he wasn't doing what he was supposed to do he's so professional that he'd probably be like, you know what guys, I deserve it. I really dropped the ball. I appreciate your time here. Thank you. And it wouldn't be awkward one bit because it's another professional that sees things the same way that we do, which is basically, we have a job to do.

We want to get that done. We're going to support you. We expect you to do a role. We're going to do ours, hold us accountable to that. We're going to hold you accountable as well. Same thing with anybody else that we bring on. If they're not doing what they're supposed to do, we are early often having that conversation and we've had very little if any.

Problems associated with people that we've worked with that are related to us, and I would say that family is probably more of something that we look for than friends because friends, it's not the same. It's definitely easier to hit a home run with a family member. If you guys have, or if they have the right skill set that you're looking for versus a A friend.

So pros and cons, they're definitely there. The pros are trust. It means more to them, it's easier to find them, and they get partner level effort with friends and family, especially family cons. Or they can be less professional. They can view you more as a friend than a boss. They can use undermining tones with you as if they're just talking with a friend.

There can be resentment that builds if, they feel like they deserve more than what you think they deserve. Can be really hard to fire them and not ruin all your relationships at the same time. That's it. Now it's up to you. Now it's up to you to decide whether it's the right fit or not.

Like I said, I've had a wonderful experience working with my wife and with family that we have, we've hired. And I would totally rehire all of these people. They're amazing. And I really do value and appreciate them. And on the flip side of that, I have seen countless examples of. Things that have not worked out so well.

So it's all about fit. It's all about the skillset and it's all about hiring people that help build a better team, not necessarily just more of yourself, which is what most people end up doing. So I hope this helps if you're on the fence about what to do with a friend or family member. Give this some thought maybe listen to this together in some case or separately and talk through some of this.

If you guys are on the fence about that cause you definitely want to make that decision correctly if possible. And really, again, I caution you try to find opposing complimentary skills, not just overlapping skills with friends and family in particular, because. You'll end up stepping on each other's toes and that's really frustrating.

So as always, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next week.

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