E494 | Solving The Massive Student Debt Issue In Healthcare

One of the more frustrating things we deal with in our profession is debt. Undergrad and graduate schools in general can be very expensive. Our profession can be highly rewarding, but it also has a massive monetary and time cost associated with it. Today, Yves and I discuss the avenues in which you can take to overcome this all too common obstacle.

• Not understanding the long-term ramifications of taking on debt
• Understanding your earning potential
• Making great income combined with fiscal responsibility

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] So one of the best ways to improve your customer experience, which we know will dramatically improve your business, is to have clear lines of communication with your clients. And that's something that can be really hard with these multiple channels between email and text. And what you really need is to centralize that in one place.

And that's something that we've been able to do as we switched over to PT everywhere within our client's accounts. We can actually message right back and forth with them. They can manage their home exercise plan within there, and it allows us to really compartmentalize the communi. That we have with those clients, instead of losing an email in the inbox or missing a text and, and then you're, it's very hard to dig yourself outta that hole because they feel like you're not very responsive, you know, with them.

And for us, it's made a really, really big difference. It helps make our staff more efficient. It helps us not miss things as much with the volume of people that we're working with. And it's a really smart way of really compartmentalizing. Your communication with your clients so it doesn't interfere with the rest of the channels.

You have communication with family and friends and things like that, so I think it'd be huge for your practice to centralize it the way we have. Head [00:01:00] over to pt everywhere.com. Check out what our friends are doing over there. I think it's really cool and I think you really like it. So here's the question.

How do physical therapists like us who don't wanna see 30 patients a day, who don't wanna work home health and have real student loans create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about? This is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Mate, and welcome to the PT Entrepreneur Podcast.

What's going on guys? Doc Danny here with Eve Gigi in the PT Entrepreneur podcast. And, uh, we are getting into a, a topic today that I think the vast majority of the, the profession deals with, uh, is definitely one of the. Uh, more frustrating parts of the profession, and that is just, frankly, debt. The debt that it takes to, to get the degrees necessary to, uh, to [00:02:00] function as a, uh, as a physical therapist primarily, or if you're a chiropractor, I think it's actually even more, uh, you know, athletic trainers are coming out of school with, uh, with debt.

You and getting master's degrees and j just graduate school in general and undergrad, um, you know, are just, they're, they're incredibly expensive and, uh, you know, it's something. The reason that we are getting into this is we had a Mastermind member, um, uh, dj, uh, down in, uh, in Tampa, uh, Vox us uh, send us a message with a podcast of, uh, Ramit, uh, Setti, who has a podcast, I believe it's called I Will Teach You To Be Rich.

It's the name of his book. Yeah. Um, cool podcast. I've listened to it. Uh, before, um, buddy had, um, a husband and wife. They were both physical therapists on there, and I think the title was, They make $145,000 a year and have $823,000 in debt, which is an incredible amount of money. Um, I don't think all that was student loans.

I, I, [00:03:00] uh, I think some of that was mortgage too. Mortgage, yeah. Like other debt, uh, as well. But the vast majority of that, Was student loans. So, um, both Eve and I listened to it and I thought it was, you know, at least for, for someone being in the profession, like what a, uh, transparent, just very honest sort of conversation, uh, that, that these people were having about school about.

Uh, taken on debt at a very young age, maybe not knowing the, um, true ramifications of that. Um, and the frustration that the career field is such a. Personally rewarding field, but the, the ability and the cost to get into the profession is very high as far as time and, and student debt, um, you know, is concerned.

So th this is what we're gonna talk about today. So if you would like to listen to that podcast, I highly recommend it. Go, uh, go check it out. Um, and then you kinda hear what [00:04:00] we're talking about and also, If you're the, uh, the couple that was on that podcast and you know, they, it's interesting. They brought up cash-based practice, um, stuff a lot.

They, they said cash-based practice stuff. Even the, the host was like, what is, what does this mean? What's a cash-based practice? Um, if that's you guys, You need to reach out to us, like hit us up. We'd love to talk to you about what you're doing. It sounds like both of you have niches that would, you know, would potentially work, uh, with, um, you know, with those, uh, those profession, uh, professions and those, those subgroups in a cash-based practice.

Um, especially the, um, the wife who, you know, They have a young kid and they, they wanna spend more time with 'em. Like we've seen so many moms be able to work a couple days a week and basically make full-time salary doing so, um, by going the cash route. And that can be a really good fit as well. So if you guys listen to this cuz we try to figure out who you are.

Actually, I went, I did some digging. I couldn't figure out who you [00:05:00] are. Um, hit us up. You can send me a message on Instagram, uh, or you can email me Danny Physical therapy biz dot. Pretty straightforward and uh, we can see if we can help you out. I think that we could. So anyway, Eve, what did you think about all that?

Yves: Yeah, um, it was cool. Like I didn't even know, uh, DJ sent it to you cuz Doug sent it to me. Right. So it looks like Oh he did? Yeah. It's like making its rounds, right? Like, um, obviously it hit a chord with a big part of our, um, community. I also posted it in the doctor of PT students Facebook group and like a lot of people had already listened to it or commented on it.

So it's, it's really interesting. I mean, obviously student. Is a huge, um, pain point for a lot of people and there's so many different opinions on it. You know, they said that in the podcast like, you know, it's a complex problem. Should it be forgiven? Obviously it's being delayed right now and um, possibly could be like completely forgiven in the future, right?

There's talks of that and I think what I [00:06:00] took away, and I know we're gonna dig into it quite a bit, is. What, when they peeled away the layers of what was going on with them and, um, the debt versus, um, income and how they were tackling the debt, the big thing was how they viewed. Their debt and money in general.

Like I, I wrote something down and it was the biggest part and the, um, she said it directly. She said she has been paralyzed by her debt ever since she got an envelope, which I didn't even know they did this. Right. They got an envelope and they opened the envelope and they were like, this is how much debt you have.

And she says, ever since she got that number, and this was what, this was a decade letter later, right? This is, yeah. 10 years, right? 10 years of this. She's literally been paralyzed by that number. Right. And has said, Legitimate money mindset issues and just been paralyzed by the number for 10 years. And, [00:07:00] um, I just thought that was super interesting, right?

Like that's a long time to let this one piece of envelope kind of control you. Yeah,

Danny: yeah. You know, uh, it's. That, that, that is what a shitty way to finish, you know, Hey, here's your diploma, here's your diploma, and here's your, your debt letter. Like what a, oh my God, what an awful way to finish, uh, to finish that out.

Um, you know, I, and, and in some ways like, I can't really relate to, uh, to that. I mean, I had, I had debt from undergrad, but you know, I, I went into the army, you know, and my debt was not, um, Financial. My debt was time, you know, it was. You know, Hey, you wanna join? Do you wanna join the Army while we're involved in two conflicts, uh, to go to PT school?

Cool. Like, great. Uh, you owe us four years on the back end of that, which we can do whatever we want with you. So, in some ways is a, you know, it was a time debt, but I knew that going into it, and there was a lot of reasons why I decided to do that, that had nothing to do with, um, you know, the, the student loan side of [00:08:00] things.

Uh, but I, I, I mean, I remember having, uh, you know, student loans and just frankly just debt. When I was in school, uh, in PT school and just trying to deal with that. And, and like most people that, that can get rid of debt, you live, you know, in a very boring life, you don't do anything. Uh, and we were just in San Antonio, uh, last week, uh, for my grandfather's funeral.

And it's fiesta. And Fiesta is like, uh, basically San Antonio, Mardi Gras. It's huge festival. Yeah. Um, And, you know, when we lived there, I didn't do anything for feta really. I mean, rarely, uh, we were there for three years and it's because it, like even $20 to get into like, you know, one of these events. We weren't doing that.

We weren't, we weren't paying for that, you know, we didn't do anything. Um, so the, the money mindset that comes with. I think is a hard thing to get over. Uh, [00:09:00] something that took us a long time to, to get over and have a healthy relationship with, with, uh, with money and being okay to spend money at a certain point.

Like once we, we, we basically got all of our debt paid off with about three or four years of living like that. And I, in the podcast that, that they did, I mean, it sounds like, like they are just, you know, it just, it feels like there's never enough money, uh, for what they need to do. And a lot of that is because, A mortgage of debt, basically, um, that is hanging over their head, you know, which is just so, uh, crippling, I think in a lot of ways, you know, for people especially that know, like the profession is, it is what it is.

You're not gonna make $300,000 a year or something like that. Like, you're not going into that knowing yet. You're taking on student loan debt that can be, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to get there. Which is, it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough exchange. Yeah.

Yves: It was interesting. A big topic there too was like at age, which I've never thought about at [00:10:00] age 18, you know, when you start college or even if you start grad school, you know, let's call it 22, you really don't understand, and I think you'd agree with this, like what.

Debt really means, and how that affects you over 10 years and like the compound interest and how that works over time and just paying off interest in the loan amounts, right? So you're really getting into something that you don't really understand those ram ramifications long term. Right. And, and we just talked about this too, right?

Like how many people are truly educated about money, right? Like our money mindset is typically from a lack of clarity of understanding. Economics and what money is and how it's produced. Right. It's just like a lack of clarity of our own situation and how this thing works, which is really interesting.

Right.

Danny: Well, for sure. And I feel like, just like the, the psychology of money is so interesting is the, the book, the Psychology of Money Great. Is great. Yeah. Morgan household, um, great read for anybody [00:11:00] that is, kind of, feels like they're struggling with that and it's pretty common sense stuff, honestly. But I think it's something that, um, You know, it, it depends on your family dynamic, right?

Some of you, maybe you come from a family that, that was, uh, was wealthy and you know, your family taught you about money more likely than not, they, you probably just, uh, they didn't talk about it because, you know, that was something that most people like, they don't really wanna talk about money. Right. Um, for whatever reason, it's, you know, it's just one of those topics that people don't want to bring up.

Um, or you, you came from a family that didn't really have a lot of money and you were constantly like, trying to get more of it because you felt like you never had had it or didn't feel safe and, or maybe you don't have any respect for it, so you spend it when you get it because maybe that's what you saw in your environment.

Um, so it, it is challenging to. Have a respect for somebody that we need, whether we like to think that or not, like it is how we exchange, uh, you know, for things in the world, uh, where we live, you know, [00:12:00] for, uh, food, for everything that we need. I mean, we're not on a barter system. You know, you need, you need money and life is much easier when you have, um, a, a strong understanding of how to make it, keep it, and get it to work for you.

And you don't feel subservient to it. And like you're constantly, uh, you know, on this hamster wheel of trying to, uh, make ends meet, which is where the vast majority of people live. And even with advanced degrees, you know, because of these expenses that they, um, That we incur, uh, along the way. And some of this is financial, um, you know, just intelligence and being fiscally responsible like that, that is a hundred percent the truth for a lot of folks.

Like, they just, they're just not very fiscally responsible and they don't, uh, they don't have a budget. They don't stick to it. Even if they do, it leads to a lot of arguments within, you know, within their, their relationships and or they take [00:13:00] on frivolous debt that is unnecessary. Devaluing assets. Right?

And, and again, some of that may not, they may not know, but some of it might just be that they don't care, uh, cuz they want the thing that they want and they want that instant gratification. Um, but, you know, I, I think understanding money and. How you should leverage that effectively is just not something that we learn, um, in school.

And frankly, most people don't know. The reason they probably don't teach you is cuz they don't freaking know either. You know, it's like, it's like the secret that a lot of people keep, uh, that keeps wealthy people very wealthy, and other people never learn it. And it's, I think it's sad, honestly.

Yves: Yeah. Like, uh, What I've really noticed, and this was growing up, and I'll be curious what you think, you know, even in college and even as an adult, you know, I almost always had a budget.

I always knew where my money was. I always, I was very conscious of my spending and I feel like most people around me didn't have that. You know, I think I was super lucky at an early age. My, my dad, [00:14:00] I had to pay for my own car insurance at age 15. Like, that's just something I had to do. I had a credit card really early and like I just had to do all these fiscally responsible things at a very early age.

And I feel like most people don't even do those basics, right? Like, you know, we did the. You know, our five day challenge, right, which is free. And like the first thing that we have people do, and it's interesting, most people don't, didn't know, you know, what their monthly costs were in order to live. Like, do you know that number?

And if you don't, why don't you know that number? Yeah, right. And then even secondarily, I do the same thing when we onboard people into our program of like, For the business. What does it cost your business? How much are you paying yourself? Most people don't know those numbers and they already have a thriving business making 10 k like so interesting to me.

And I've, I did the same thing, you know, like I, I am still learning a ton about money and I'm still, you know, uh, trying to get better about that stuff. And I didn't know that for years running a business, you know, the Profit First system, which I love to use, you know, it's just, it's just so interesting, um, [00:15:00] how money, I think you're right, is just.

It's buried. It's like a secret. It's like you don't talk about it. Yeah. And hopefully that is changing and I think it is a little bit.

Danny: Well, you know, and I think that it depends on a couple things. First of all, some people they, they view like a conversation about money on par with, you know, somebody.

Ripping their nails out, you know, like, uh, just pure torture, you know, just, just something terrible happening to them so they avoid it. Or they have a spouse maybe that. They, and this is, this is the part of what they brought up in the podcast where it's like, well, I let him deal with that because this creates stress for me.

And that's not healthy either. I don't think it's healthy to just have like one person, or even though that there might be something in the relationship that is kind of like more, they like numbers. This is how Ashley and I are with our relationship. I prof, I like that stuff. I find it interest. [00:16:00] For whatever reason she doesn't, but it doesn't mean that we don't like communicate about, you know, where we're at and what we're, what we're working towards.

Um, you know, like I think that's really, really important. But, you know, I mean, I, I think for me, for me, growing up, uh, and, and I, I think we also, like, we have to. Have a healthy respect for the fact that, you know, like we just, I came from a very middle class sort of like family, you know, it's not like I, um, was in some sort of like crazy poverty or anything like that.

I mean, I basically started the game at like second base in comparison to most people. I, I, I'm very fortunate in terms of, uh, in, in terms of that I had a lot of opportunities that many people probably never, never, um, you know, get, and. So for me, it, it wasn't so much that we didn't have things, uh, it was just that my parents just never gave me anything that I wanted.

Um, because they have [00:17:00] three kids, single, you know, parent or, or single income. Um, and. We're expensive, you know, and the stuff that I wanted wasn't a necessity, right? So I was always working. I, from an early age, I was either like, you know, cutting grass or, uh, trying to sell shit or like, I mean, I had multiple jobs at the same time.

I, while I was in college, I had two jobs. The, you know, I've worked at a sporting goods store, uh, selling. And I worked as a waiter, um, at the same time. And then I got a job as a personal trainer, and I was still a waiter. Uh, so I had, like, I just was constantly working because I knew for me if I didn't have to, um, ask anybody for anything or if I, and by that point I wasn't asking me for shit.

My parents were like, all right, you're in college. Go for it. You know? So like, it's like I was paying for stuff along the way. Uh, That's just what I thought I needed to do. So, you know, I think you learn like work leads to x, y, and z as far as money goes. [00:18:00] But what's, what I find interesting now is, uh, I think a lot of people they associate hard work with then, like, you know, a payoff of, of, um, making more money.

But I, I think it's. There's a lot of people that work hard and that don't make much money at all, many jobs that are difficult. I, I, you know, to my dad's credit, he went out of his way to find these, like physically difficult jobs for me, whether it was landscaping or, you know, working for a heating and cooling company.

Um, you know, just like cutting grass and, uh, Just shit that sucked. Like working at a car wash. We both did that. That's hard. That sucks. Like you do that in the summer in Columbus, Georgia is the worst. You know, and so like I respect that, but I know a lot of people that work really hard, that don't make much money.

And in our profession the same thing. I hear people that are like working multiple jobs or P R n and they're, you know, at their job and they're working super hard. But what I think. [00:19:00] What we see on the other side is if there's other skillsets that are more valuable. And this is the whole point of like understanding like the clinical rainmaker sort of approach that we have, which is, you know, you can leverage your skillset in a way where you're learning other things that are higher dollar, um, hi higher value, uh, skills.

And you can two to three x what you're making without necessarily working any harder. You're just working on different things and that's what I think is, is. The secret sauce, or like this secret that nobody tells you is like, yeah, like you have this skillset, but anybody can take these skillsets and apply them in a slightly different way and do something on their own and really exponentially change their earning potential.

And this is where we see people eradicate debt. Like, I mean, how many people in our mastermind have, have we had that have paid off student loans because they're making so much more money but living the same, and then all of a sudden they set themselves. To be in a completely different realm as far as finances go.

Once they have that paid off and [00:20:00] they're fiscally responsible along the way, so like I, I think. I think it's what you decide you wanna work on, but just not even knowing that most people don't even know, oh, I can do something different and I can increase my earning potential. That's the biggest difference I see for people that are making dent in their student loans or not.

Yves: Yeah. Um, it was really interesting, right, to circle back to the podcast like they, you know, you said they talked about cash pay. And they said specifically, it seems to be the only viable option for us to increase our income potential. Right. Cuz she had a good job that she liked. She was there part-time, but Right.

The, the, the ability for her to increase her income was fairly limited in that system. Right? Yeah. She was working for somebody else and she said I could go cash pay. But there was so much uncertainty involved. Right. And that's where we're like, both of us were like, you know, we can help. You know what I mean?

Like, you have no idea. You've already got people asking for you. Like, you know, we know you can price it correctly. It's like, just do these couple, do these couple things and all of a sudden, yeah, your income potential is [00:21:00] massive, right? Like, especially as a single practitioner, you know, um, no overhead. You can make huge.

Dance in your student debt. And we've seen that, right? We've seen people, like you said, uh, we had Russ who, you know, just celebrated it this year. Um, we know we have multiple, um, instances of people being able to just, you know, come up with a really good plan and eradicate their debt and it's because they were able to.

Increase the ceiling, so to speak, of their income potential. Right. And make those choices and still do, which again, was a great part of the podcast. They didn't wanna change what they were doing cuz they loved pt and I noticed that about our profession, right? If you're in a healthcare profession, you love what you're doing and you don't wanna change it.

It's frustrating, but you don't wanna change it, right? And that's what I love about, um, a lot of stuff we're promoting is that allows you to continue to do what you love and just leverage the skillset in a way that can increase your income potential. You. Not, not tenfold, but quite a bit,

Danny: you know? Well, I, I, I mean, it could be, that's the thing.

It's like, [00:22:00] uh, there's no ceiling on something you decide to do yourself. Um, right, right. I, I, the, the thing that I, that stuck out with me with that when they were talking about, um, A cash, uh, option was, they had a friend that was doing it that was, uh, fairly successful it sounded like, but they were saying he is working like a hundred hours a week, you know, and, and I'm thinking, well, we need to talk to your friend too, because, you know, like the, the, that's just not the how it has to be now.

When you start anything, it's extra exponentially harder. Really, pretty much any other phase. It's like getting, you know, like if you're pushing a sled, that the getting it started is harder than keeping it going. Um, right. Really starting anything is like that. It's not any different, but I mean, I would say a hundred hour week, like that's a hell of a lot of work.

Uh, and that might have been an exaggeration, hopefully, but I mean, like, I've been there before starting our practice, especially when I was teaching as well as, [00:23:00] You know, starting our business, uh, I don't, I don't think the time is what scares most people off, to be honest with you. You know, I think that it's enjoyable to work on your own, you know, your own business.

It's exciting. You, you get to be creative. You get to, um, Test yourself. I think that's what scares people more than anything, is the fear of failure. Um, you know, and as I hear them talking about these things, um, you know, it's like, yeah, you're in a comfortable spot. You may not like your job that much, but it's easy.

You know, like I, it's, it's like government work. I sat with my family, uh, in San Antonio. I listen to 'em talk about just how easy their jobs are, just how few patients like my dad and my, my. Sister work in a government, they work in a military hospital. And my brother, he actually works at Johns Hopkins, but he does like aviation transport stuff.[00:24:00]

So he works 24 hour shifts. Sometimes lots of people get stabbed, sometimes not a lot of people get stabbed. Right? Like that's basically what happened. So, you know, he was talking about how he worked basically like three out of the 24 hours that he was at his shift. And my sister was like, I had one patient, my dad said I had one procedure he did.

He is like interventional radiology stuff with the physician there and. And I'm sitting there like, that sounds so boring. You guys are just like, God, it's gotta be boring. Right? There's so much shit you can, what are you doing? Just looking up stuff on the internet the whole time and basically, yeah, so like.

If you have an easy job, it's like fairly mentally easy and you're getting paid, okay. I think it's hard to leave that, you know, because it's fairly, fairly easy. You're getting paid all right? It's like not that uncomfortable that you're forced to leave, to go do something else that is frankly, very uncomfortable, uh, to, to start with.

So I think the, the fear is typically not the, like, is the hours, it's the, well, what if this doesn't work? You know, like for me, that was it. If this doesn't. I leave the Army, I'm about [00:25:00] to, you know, hit my major promotion board. I've got a pretty, you know, I don't know, save career ahead of myself. Then what do I do?

Like, I definitely am not going back in. I've gotta go get a job somewhere that's gonna be embarrassing. I will be a failure. You know, everybody will see that I did this thing that people told me not to do and it didn't work out. And. That's usually what keeps people from taking, you know, the leap and doing their own thing more than the work.

I don't think people are scared of the work. I think they're scared of what if I put the work in and it doesn't actually work out? And that is more of a mental barrier than anything else. The hardest thing to get over, in my opinion, is that right there. Yeah. It didn't sound like they were there. It sounded like they were making these excuses.

Well, I don't want to work a hundred hours a week. I don't wanna do this even though. If you could just make a lateral transfer in your pay, but you worked with all your ideal customers, like I get to work with people that I really like working with. The exchange for me was totally worth it. Like [00:26:00] that in its own right is great, but what if you could work with the people you really like to work with and you double your salary?

Like why not? You know, if you knew it would work, everybody would probably do that. The the kicker is it's not guaranteed and that's what stops most. Yeah.

Yves: And I that, yes, and it's the lack of clarity and actually like digging deep and figuring it out. Like he pushed them a little bit, right? Like, and once he, um, pushed them a little bit harder.

He realized that they didn't really think through the entire process. Right? Like he kind of alluded to the side hustle thing, well, why don't you keep doing what you're doing? See your 2, 3, 2 or three patients on the side. Right? And um, I mean she did always come up with excuses or obviously legitimate reasons.

They had two kids, right? Yep. And there was a lot going on, but I think. They dig a little deeper. Hopefully they could be like, oh man, this possibly could a be a solution. Right? Like we don't ever, I think, dig [00:27:00] deep enough to really figure out if this will work for us, right? Like false beliefs, I think. Or what?

Hold a lot of people back as well, right? Yeah. Like this won't work in my market, you know? I don't have enough time. I can't do this plus raise kids like I can't work a hundred hours. Well, like why do you think you have to work a hundred hours? Just cuz your friends work in a hundred hours? Does that mean you have to like, Maybe not.

Right? Like we won't, so I feel like we won't dig deeper, right. Because, and I think ultimately you're right. It's because, you know, we're scared of what we'll find on the other side. Because once we open up our doors and say, oh man, I could do this now, it gets really scary, right? It's always that, that inertia, that first, you know, little leap.

And that's why I was just push people for clarity, right? Like, you know, to circle back to it, like get your mindset right on. Finances, get your mindset right on, you know, what money is and what money means to you and what's holding you back. And then get really clear on how doable [00:28:00] actually could this be for me.

Like go do the numbers, you know? And that's what that five day challenge was for just, it made people put down a number that said, I need to see five to 10 patients a week, or what, you know, whatever their number is. Very clear. Seven Yeah. Patients a week in order to replace my income. And you look at that number and.

Holy shit. That's way do more doable than I ever thought

Danny: it was. Yeah, and I mean, look, I think there's, I think there's some drawbacks. There's obviously some, you know, some, some negatives to the model. You know, I, I wish that. We could work with, you know, Medicare, medicaid, um, populations and, uh, not have to be in network.

Right. Or, or be able to take, take those and get reimbursed what we need in order to, um, not have high volume Right. And Right. And we can't. Right. And it does alienate certain. Um, groups of people that are lower income. Like I totally get that. You know, and I think, I think there's trade-offs that you have to be [00:29:00] okay with.

You know, for us, we've always looked at it as, Well, we're gonna work with the people and surprisingly, a lot more people afford what we, what we do than what people actually think, you know? Yes. I mean, it's, it's not just like super affluent people, it's just people that value their time and their health, you know?

And that's people that are teachers, cops, uh, you know, you, you name it, that are, that are just kind of middle, lower income earners. They're not all partners at a law firm. You know what I mean? So, uh, I. But for us, what we see is, okay, well we have a profitable business. We can support non-profits. We can give scholarships out to people that we wanna work with that can't afford to work with us.

Um, we can't do that if we're not a profitable business, right? So, like we, we've kind of taken, we've kind of taken that path. But for some people, maybe if they just love working with Medicare population, it's, it's not the best fit for them. Right. Or if they are peds and they're heavily, you know, Medicaid, it's not the best fit for them.

I, I totally get it. Um, but, you know, I, I think that, It is quite, it's quite a good equalizer [00:30:00] for our profession, uh, for many people, especially people that want to focus on a specific niche and be really, you know, really good with that, with that niche and they make themself more valuable, um, by being a subject matter expert with that, with that niche and, you know, for us to see people as a single provider, you know, that are taking home.

Like no other people in their practice, just them. Maybe they have an admin, you know, but, but taking home 150, you know, to $200,000, um, is realistic. Uh, it, depending on where you're at, maybe it's a little bit less, maybe it's a little bit more, depends on your cost of living too. Whether that's a good bit of money.

If you're making $150,000 and you're living in downtown San Francisco, it's a little bit different than making $150,000 and living in, you know, uh, where Atlanta or whatever, it's gonna be vastly different. Um, There is increasing an increased earning potential just with that. Right? And if you want to take it past that [00:31:00] to where you're growing, you know, a bigger and bigger business, that's kind of up to you.

And it depends on what your goals are, you know? And, um, I've had people, you know before that they're like, man, I talk about money a lot. Like I, I just think it's. It's not something that anybody should be ashamed of. It's not something I'm, you know, like I'm pretty transparent about, um, about it and, and my views on it.

Um, and I think people can make as much money as they want, and I think that you deserve to make as much as you think you can make. And was it Henry Ford said like, whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. So if you don't think you can do it, you're not gonna fucking do it. And if you think you can, if you honestly believe.

Can do it and you're gonna do it, then you're gonna be fine because you're halfway there already. Like the hardest part though is to get to that point, um, mentally, and I think one of the benefits that we see with the people that we work with is now you have this group of 150 to 200 business owners that you can look to and see different examples of people along the path, and all of a sudden your false belief of what you can [00:32:00] do, oh, you, you can own a business.

And raise a family and be around and not have to work a hundred hours a week, or maybe you work even less and you pick your kids up every day and you make $300,000 a year. Like, okay, here, let me introduce you to so-and-so. That's doing that. And now all of a sudden, like you're, what you're telling yourself, You realize it's completely fake and it's just your safety blanket to stop you from potentially, you know, getting hurt.

Yves: There are just so many cool examples now of different models now too, right? Like what we talk about, which is, you know, going in a gym, starting a practice, building it up, getting an admin, you know, um, going to a standalone space, getting multiple practitioners, like that's the way we've been doing it. Now there's just examples of.

Physical therapists, like attacking it from the training side, right? Yeah. So they can see wherever they want. And running successful businesses, there's people doing like hybrid versions of this and being really successful, right? Like the bottom line is if you, if you, if you wanna make it [00:33:00] work, you know, and this is what I'm loving about.

What's going on in our communities is that we're finding a way, right? It's no more of like, I have student debt, I have this degree, I only have one path, right? Like, and I've, I can do home health or I can do travel pt if I wanna make a bunch of money or if, you know, I care about, uh, you know, acute care or outpatient, I have to be in there.

Like, that was our only path. And now we have all these other different versions of leveraging. Degree in a way that can benefit us and our family. And just seeing more patients, like I now scroll through my Instagram feed when I'm commenting and doing research and the amount of like workshops and stuff that people are doing and, and getting out in the community and helping people is absolutely massive.

Like, what is that doing for like the people that don't even come in and see us, the information that's being given out. Yeah. You know, Uh, it's probably 10 to 20 workshops every single week, you know, [00:34:00] for the past two to three years that our community you're doing. Like, it's just like, I just had this moment, you know?

And, and I know we're going on a different tangent, but it was just like so cool to see and, uh, we're just, we're starting to say yes and we're starting to figure it out as opposed to just saying, no, I can't do this. And coming up with you. Excuses or sometimes legitimate reasons. Yes. But a lot of times it's excuses.

Danny: Sure. I mean, look, there's, there's legitimate ex, there's legitimate reasons for many things that, um, Maybe the timing isn't the best, or maybe the location isn't the best, or maybe, you know, you, you don't feel as competent as you would like to with whatever your skillset is. Or maybe you have no desire whatsoever to work for yourself.

And, and that's totally fine too. Not every, it's not actually the right fit for everybody. Um, it, but if it's the right fit for you, you'll know. You know, you, you'll, you'll know. You probably are selling yourself short if you think that it's not, um, because you know, you, you probably are more resilient than you think.

[00:35:00] Uh, when you get put in those situations, most people find that they, that they are. But to your point, you know, money follows value, period, right? The more, the more value you provide to the marketplace, uh, to the economy, the more money you get in return. And you know, the thing is, Uh, helping someone with back pain is worth a certain amount, right?

Helping somebody recover from an a C l tear is worth a certain amount. Helping somebody build software is worth a certain amount, right? And, uh, what we see is, you know, there's value associated to these different things that we can do. And, and, um, if we want to increase what we, what we make as far as, as far as money goes, you have to provide more value to the marketplace.

And figure out a way to do that along with your, your skillset. And, and you can do that in a lot of different ways. Um, it's just a matter of what most people look at is just putting more hours in, right? Or, or, Doing things that are [00:36:00] maybe less people want to do so they get more money for that. Right. So like home health is an example of, it's not the, the thing that most people go to school and they're like, I can't wait to do home health, or I can't wait to work at a sniff.

You know? But those get paid more because less people actually want to do those. Um, so you know, That's one option or to work more hours is one option to make more money. And look, you gotta do what you gotta do. Like it is what it is. Like I, I worked at insane amount of hours whenever I first got outta the army doing many different, same, you know, things piecing together and it's unsustainable after a period of time.

I mean, You should kill yourself for a couple years and you're unhealthy and you're stressed and all your relationships are strained. And, but in some ways you may have to do those and, and that is what it is, but it's not how it has to be forever. You know? And, and the other thing too, I think that, The vast majority of people, they, they, they put, I feel like they put money on this pedestal.

It's like, well, if I just had this much, then everything would be okay. No, it wouldn't it because you don't know [00:37:00] what the fuck to do with it. You have no, you have no idea how to actually leverage that an effective way. And the only way you can do that is to earn it the right way. This is why people that that win the lottery lose their money.

This is why professional athletes that get paid this insane amount of money to play a game, they've never learned what the heck to do with money. And one of the best ways to learn what to do with money is to start a business because. If you don't know or learn these, these, these rules, these intangible rules with money, you'll go out of business.

You have to learn fiscal responsibility. You have to learn cashflow management, you have to learn about taxes. You have to learn about the creation of wealth and risk and these other things associated with it. Otherwise, game's over. So if you, you know, if you really are looking at this like, well, okay, how do I improve my relationship with money?

I think one of the fastest ways to do it is. Start a business and now, instead of like this employer that you are, you know, trusting and, and this [00:38:00] bigger company that's handling all these things, whatever you have to do, it, it's, it's a different skillset, but it's the fastest way to really learn the truth in terms of like how to utilize money and how to gain a respect for that.

Because when you earn a dollar yourself, it's very different than if somebody pays you to fulfill something else. You, you, you, you look at it very differently. You have a different re respect for that. It's fucking hard. So hard. The first $10,000 you earn in your own. Is the hardest $10,000 you've ever learned in your earn your entire life?

It's so damn difficult to get started, but so doable if you're willing to stick to. Yeah,

Yves: I mean, it's the epitome of something that we talk about, you know, um, all the time. And it's, the obstacle is the way, right? Like put yourself in a position where you have to learn these things and you need to go figure it out.

If you're getting, uh, salary and you're doing a home health job and yeah, you're just working more hours or whatever, You don't need to learn about it, right? Like you have a fixed amount of income, maybe you save some and that's it. But you have to go start your own [00:39:00] business. You're going to have to figure these things out.

And I think that's, yeah. Um, it's definitely how I live my life. I just always put myself in a slightly more uncomfortable situation, and so I have to figure it out, you know, that's what keeps me motivated. Every single time we'll pivot to something just a little bit harder to challenge myself, so I have to learn a little bit more.

I mean, we talk about it all the time. The, the way to do this and the way. To get through some of these obstacles is basically self-improvement, is learning new skills and committing to that entire process. And yes, there's some people who don't wanna do that and I think that's okay, right? Like I have friends and so do you who just like enjoy.

Just going and getting a paycheck every day. That's like, and they, uh, have a great work-life balance and they really enjoy it. But there is a gigantic group of people who will not allow themselves to pursue something and to actually be happy, pursue their passion, because they have these things holding them back.

And all I wanna do is make sure that that no longer happens. Do those people [00:40:00] realize that they can go to this other side? And as you said, the path is, I mean, yes. It's really hard. And really difficult, but so is staying at your job and being unhappy. So go pick the thing that at least it has a light at the end of the

Danny: tunnel.

Well, I, I think that there's something to be said for work-life balance, which is something that, you know, I have not done a good job of the first, uh, probably five years, you know, that I was in, in business, um, for myself. And it's, I think it's easy to. Just completely become one-sided because. The work is enjoyable.

Your, you see, your, your, your vision. It starts to sort of like evolve and, and turn into reality. Um, and, and, and, you know, there's many things you have to learn and, and you start to sort of just get, delve into and become obsessive over it. Um, [00:41:00] You know, but people that have great work-life balance, they have hobbies, you know, they have things they like to do outside of, outside of, uh, work.

I think that's great too. The only thing that I would say as a caveat to that is if that's you, you are not allowed to bitch about not making enough money. You don't do anything to earn more. And that actually is really frustrating for me. When I hear people, they're like, well, our profession should make more.

Why? Why should our profession make more? You're. Doing anything any differently, the more the, the economy is not valuing you anymore. In fact, insurance companies are just saying you're worth less every single year and you're not doing a fucking thing about it. Nothing. I feel like I've cursed more on this podcast than I have in the last few, uh, when he gets riled up.

But the pro, the, but the, but the problem is that if you want that, that's fine, but you have to accept what the, the economy says. You're. That's it. Like if that's the role that you want to take, that's totally fine and you may be cool with that. But there's so many people I see in our profession that complain [00:42:00] about not like being valued more than they are.

That is not how it works. This is an open market. This is a free, it's a, a free open market. You can make as much or as little money as you want. You've just decided to, to pick a profession. That I agree is undervalued. I completely agree with you. Totally. There's, and there's really not a lot of ways to get around that besides.

Deciding to do your own thing and dictate what you want in return, and seeing if the market agrees with that. That is the way that it's set up. That's the way capitalism works, which is our economic structure, which has a lot of benefits, a lot of pros, you know, you can take a chance on yourself and make it work in a very different way.

Um, I think it is really frustrating though for people in their profession to feel like they're undervalued and not getting paid enough, but, but lack the ability to take ownership in doing more because. The perception is, well, if I just become a better clinician, if I get more of these credentials, let me get all of these, like clinical specialty [00:43:00] whatevers.

Insurance doesn't care. It doesn't reimburse you more because you have an O C s or you don't. It doesn't reimburse you more because you're a fellow or you're not. Like, understand you are on paper. Yes, you're a ninja. Aetna doesn't care because they're gonna reimburse somebody that has a day of experience the same amount as you with 20 years and a fellowship.

And in my opinion, that's not fair. And that should make you angry and that should irritate you enough to wanna say, well, what am I worth if I am better than everybody else? Well, will the free market agree with that? And, and it probably will if you're really that good and you're willing to go out on.

Yves: I mean, you gotta understand the rules of the game, right?

It's on you. If you don't understand that, you could go get a thousand different fellowship and you're not gonna get paid more. Everybody knows that. So do you understand the rules of the game or do you not? Right? Right. If you want to go out and you want to go do more, there is this path for you can go research and you can do it.

And if you [00:44:00] decide not to, that's okay too, right? But I think you're right. You don't have. The right. I don't know. I don't love that word for some reason, but like you, you know, you can't complain because you, if you wanna make the choice and do something different, you can absolutely do that. Right. And there are definitely things, yes.

I didn't know I was getting the student debt or I thought I was gonna make more money. Right. But like, You can bitch about it all you want, but like, it's not gonna change it. Like it doesn't matter. This system is here to stay. You're not gonna change a third party payer healthcare system, which we can do is you can leverage your degree in a different way, right?

You can go, you can go, you know, I don't want you to leave the profession, but you could go also go do something else, right? You can right now be a truck driver, go get your CDL license, which takes about six months and probably make $150,000 a year. Yeah, you could totally do that. Like that. If. And probably make more money than most, most PTs.

Yeah.

Danny: Hopefully you're right. Or you know, like, yeah, you don't need a doctorate to drive a truck. Uh, but nobody wants to do it, so they have to [00:45:00] pay people more money, you know? Um, dude, the travel nurse stuff is crazy right now. I was talking to my sister about this, you know, the amount of money that she could make.

If she, she's an I C U credentialed critical care nurse, like she could make a ton of money taking these travel jobs. Um, she's just, you know, she's in the GS system, I think it would be hard to get back in. So she, she doesn't do it. But the reason that it, those are paying so much is because such few, so few people want to do it, and so many people have left the profession.

So now you see. Supply and demand, right? There's less supply of these people. The demand goes up. They have to pay more for them to, to be able to take these contracts in, um, in the hospitals that need them so they're getting paid more. You know? So, I mean, it, it is what it is. It's just, it's just the way that the economy works.

And I think that. For people that are struggling with debt, which is in our profession, is most people, right? I mean, like we've, I've heard some silly numbers for people that have come out like three to $400,000 in debt when they come out between their undergrad and their grad school. [00:46:00] With people that we work with in our mastermind, they don't have a choice but to have a successful business in order to pay their damn debt off, right?

Like they have to make more money. They want the profession. Dictates, you know, that they're gonna work as a worth, as a salary employee. Um, you know, so for them it's, it, it's, there's nothing they can do about it. But there's two options. There's, there's only two op, well, I guess there's three, there's three options when it comes to paying off debt.

Number one, you just, you live like, you know, like a, a meiser, right? We, we've, we've heard this time and time again, like, you don't do anything. This is what I did for years. It sucks, but it's, it checked the box for us, which is interesting. And like we, we enjoyed San Antonio. The way that we wished we could have enjoyed it when we lived there, right?

Cause we didn't have the money to actually do anything. Or we didn't spend any money cuz we're trying to pay off all of our debt. You can make a whole bunch more money and live your same lifestyle, but then put that towards debt. Or you can make a whole lot of money and have fiscal responsibility. And that's where we see people eliminate debt very quickly.

You know, and this is what's happened with [00:47:00] people in our, in our, you know, mastermind community that understand fiscal responsibility. They make more money and then they decide this is an emphasis for them to pay this off faster. Cuz they want to get themselves and their family in a place where they're basically at zero.

I mean, I, I've talked to people where they're like, the best day of my life was when I hit my net worth was zero and I'm at neutral right now. You know, and then from there they can start to, to really put themselves in their family in a, in a strong financial position. Um, and that's your options. That's basically it.

Or I guess you can. And hope that the government, you know, um, forgives it someday, forgives it. But then that could also be classified as taxes, you know, so if you have $200,000 that gets forgiven, that's that you've made $200,000 that year on paper and you have to pay taxes on that, which is still a lot of freaking money depending on which state you're in, in particular.

Could be, you know, dramatically, more or less depending on state taxes as well. So, you know, it's just something to think about either way. You know, it is what it is. Uh, you know, we, we all go into this [00:48:00] as young, uh, clinicians or soon-to-be clinicians. We have very little intelligence when it comes to money.

Um, I, I do think it's. It, it doesn't seem right that the universities charge as much as they do, but we're openly and willingly doing it. You know, nobody can, different podcast right there.

Yves: That'd be an amazing podcast about the rising cost of, uh, yeah. Of universities and academics.

Danny: It's crazy. It's crazy.

And, and the sad part is the job is awesome. Yeah. It's, it's one of the most personally rewarding jobs, right? You can have and, and it's, it's great. And it's one of the reasons why so. Just really solid people become physical therapists, move into the healthcare space. Like nobody, nobody goes like to physical therapy school cuz they enjoy hurting people.

You know what I mean? Like they, they like to help people get out of pain and back to the things they like to do and they enjoy the process and the personal satisfaction that comes along with that is incredibly [00:49:00] valuable. But we have to also be able to, Pay for our lifestyles and be able to live, you know, in a world that's getting more and more expensive every year.

And it seems like our profession in particular has such a high amount of debt. To a lower amount of income for a staff clinician or whatever. Just a, a W2 employee. Clinician. And it just, the trade off, I just doesn't seem to make sense. You know, uh, on paper we,

Yves: we don't need to be financial martyrs anymore, right?

There seems to be these like certain professions where they're like that, right? Strength coaches, ATCs, right? Like we have positioned ourselves a certain way and it's a part of our culture and. I want to change that culture, right? Like you deserve. Treat patients, enjoy your job, you know, love the process and make a good living.

Like why does a software engineer, you know, for a startup that might go outta business sometime deserve to [00:50:00] make 150, 200 and $250,000? And a physical, like, uh, I, I, I think it should be the other way around. And so I'm gonna give you these options and these tools in order to change that, you know, and we can either decide to do that.

We can decide, I guess not to, and that that's okay too. I have to live with those consequences as

Danny: well. Yeah. Where everybody just becomes software engineers, you know, and, and, uh, that sucks. I mean, like, those are, those are needed. But again, like I don't, I don't think injuries are going anywhere. I don't think, you know, People having musculoskeletal pain is being solved anytime soon.

And you know, we get to help people in such a cool, meaningful way and develop like really great relationships with them, you know, and it's, it's, in my opinion, it's worth the debt. It's, it's worth it to be able to have that profession. Um, hundred percent. Especially if you can figure out a way. You can level out [00:51:00] the debt to income that it takes to be able to, you know, uh, to get the, to get the education and then be able to, you know, have a lifestyle after that that is, is not crippled by, by debt, which I think is just, is just, honestly, it's just sad to see that that's, that that's the case.

Um, and, and maybe there's a different way that we don't know about, I don't know. All I know is, you know, The, the path that we've taken has, has, uh, changed our life tremendously. The path that many people that we work with, um, the same thing happens, you know, with them. And you know, when I think when your basic, you know, sort of financial, uh, constraints are taken care of because you have a surplus of income.

And I've been on both sides of this. Life is way less stressful when. You know, I, I always look at it like if I go to a restaurant and I'm not s I'm not concerned about like what I'm gonna order. [00:52:00] Because the difference between me getting something that's $15 and $25 doesn't make a meaningful difference in my life.

But I want that $25, whatever. Uh, Like that, that you made it. That's it. You know, like I, the, I don't think it has to be more complex than that. It doesn't have to be, you know, you don't have to have this magical number. Like you need to be in a place where you can comfortably enjoy the world around you and the things that you like to do.

And it doesn't actually take that much money, honestly, but it's more than what the average PT is making, um, that's dealing with this massive debt that goes along with it, because that you have to take out. Dude, it's an extra thousand plus dollars a month for a lot of these people, which is so different.

Imagine if they could take that and compound that a, a savings vehicle over a long period of time. The difference is astronomical over the next 20 years in terms of where they're at financially. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. All right. Well guys, go listen to the [00:53:00] podcast. Uh, I will teach you to be Rich Ramit, uh, SETI, and, um, I don't know which podcast number it is, but, uh, just you'll find it very easy.

I think it was like from two or three weeks ago. Uh, great podcast. And again, if you're on that podcast and you're listening to this, we try to figure out who you are, but I think we can help, um, hit me up. I'd love to see if we can help you guys out. Um, you're, I just feel like. I feel like that story just, it just resonates with so many people.

Right. Especially they have kids like you hear that and it's just so, it's, it's frustrating to hear you know, them and, and what they're dealing with. Um, because a lot of people in our profession are in the exact same spot, you know, and it's, it's just interesting for us to see like what other people are able to do.

And obviously we're very biased cause this is what we do. It's happening. It's happening. And, you know, it's, we're not making this stuff up. Like it's, as soon as you meet some of the folks that we work with, like you just will never look at the profession the same way ever again. So I hope that, uh, you know, [00:54:00] you can make this work for you if you're listening to it.

I hope that if you're listening to this and you're like, damn, I sound just like these folks. Um, you know, I, I hope you take a look at what we're talking about as well. I think. One of the few bright spots in the profession. Sadly, uh, I think a lot of people think it's going the wrong direction. In many parts of it are, but if you're involved in, you know, the fee for service cash world, and especially in a performance niche, you know, I think it's a very bright spot, um, especially over the next 10 years before everybody else figures it out and then it's gonna be harder for you to start one of these practices.

So anyway, guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to the podcast and we will catch you. Later.

What's up, PT Entrepreneurs? We have a new exciting challenge for you guys. It's our five day PT biz part-time to full-time challenge where we help you get crystal clear on how to actually go from a side hustle to a full-time clinic. [00:55:00] Even if you haven't started yet. This is a great way to get yourself organized in preparation for eventually going full-time into your business.

So we actually help you get crystal clear on how much money you're actually gonna need. Replace with your business to be able to make a lateral transfer. How many people you're actually gonna need to see based on what you should be charging. We're gonna tell you three different strategies you can take to go from part-time to full-time, and you get to pick the one that seems like the best fit for you for your current situation.

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Hey, real quick before you go, I just wanna say thank you [00:56:00] so much for listening to this podcast, and I would love it if you got involved in the conversation. So this is a one way channel. I'd love to hear back from you. I'd love to get you into the group that we have formed on Facebook. Our PT Entrepreneurs Facebook group has about 4,000 clinicians in there that are literally changing the face of our profession.

I'd love for you to join the conversation, get connect with other clinicians all over the country.

I do live trainings in there with Yves Gege every single week, and we share resources that we don't share anywhere else outside of that group.So if you're serious about being a PT entrepreneur, a clinical rainmaker, head to that group. Get signed up. Go to facebook.com/groups/ptentrepreneur, or go to Facebook and just search for PT Entrepreneur. And we're gonna be the only group that pops up under that.