E418 | Student Debt and How To Increase Your Earning Potential With F Scott Feil

Today, I am excited to be joined by my friend, Dr. F Scott Feil.  We engage in a fairly informal conversation about our profession, and student debt in particular and how people can start to chip away at their debt in much better ways.

Dr. F Scott Feil is a physical therapist and educator focused on improving the lives of individuals in the geriatric space. He began his career in 2007 as a traveling physical therapist taking contracts in Texas, Hawaii and North Carolina.  Enjoy!

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Podcast Transcript

Danny: [00:00:00] So I was having a conversation with one of our staff members about documentation and, uh, he had come over from a, uh, in-network practice that he was working at and he was talking about just how long it would take him to document and click through and the workflow and how, just how time consuming it was and how much easier it's been with the software that we use, which is PT everywhere.

And I know for us, we're very, very aware. Sort of time leaks within our staff and our own, our own, uh, schedules. And it's just one of the, the worst things you can do is just waste time on things when you could be doing them more efficiently. One thing for us is we have to document. It's something we need to do and you need to do it as as efficiently as you possibly can because that's where you're gonna save a lot of your time.

You know, we were seeing our staff members save upwards of an hour a day as far as, uh, cleaning up his documentation, making it more efficient. What if you got an hour of your day back just from documentation? What if all of your staff do the same thing? Highly recommend you take a look at PT everywhere.

It's been a huge time saver for us and really has made a big difference in our efficiency of our practice. You can check 'em [00:01:00] [email protected]. I think you're gonna really like what they had to. So here's the question. How do physical therapists like us who don't wanna see 30 patients a day, who don't wanna work home health and have real student loans create a career and life for ourselves that we've always dreamed about?

This is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name's Danny Matte, and welcome to the PT Entrepreneur Podcast.

What's going on guys? Uh, Danny Mate here with my buddy f Scott. Feel. Um, cool name, cool guy. Uh, excited to to chat with him. We're doing something interesting. We're actually just gonna have an informal conversation, uh, about a couple things that are just, you know, big. Topics within, um, you know, within our profession, you know, student debt in particular and how people can really start to, you know, chip away at the challenge that is coming outta school with, you know, six figures in debt, most people, right?

So, um, we're gonna have kinda informal conversation [00:02:00] about what we're seeing with that. He's written a book on this, which I highly recommend take a look at. Um, and then hopefully what we can share with you, uh, can help you with your student debt as well as give you some ideas of ways that you can increase your, your take home pay to really.

Whether it's fund to business or pay off debt, or pay for family vacation, whatever it might be. But your increase, your take home pay so that you make more, you know, than the average, uh, professional. So, um, ESCO, anything you wanna, you wanna add to that at all? No,

Scott: man. Thanks so much for doing this, for taking the time and, and chatting with me.

The last time we chatted was on the, uh, healthcare Education Transformation Podcast and, uh, We talked a little bit about tactical athletes and, and you know, working with the military. And then we kind of got into, toward the end of the episode a little bit of your cash pay business, you know, when you're outta network business, um, and, and how you were growing that.

And so this is a cool continuation for me to kind of, you know, see the, the transformation of all the things that you've been doing since then. Yeah. Um, but you know, like you said, I think one of the big issues facing the field of physical therapy right now is [00:03:00] the debt to income. Oh, you know, true. Um, you were very fortunate going through the Baylor program.

You didn't, didn't have to worry too much about that. But, you know, that's, that's not the norm. Uh, we're seeing, like you said, kids come out with, with six figures or more worth of debt, you know, uh, multiple six figures

Danny: sometimes. What's the most you've ever heard of? I'm, I, I've got a number that, I was shocked when this person told me this, but like, what, what's the, what's the, like pr, uh, personal debt?

You or, uh, student debt you.

Scott: I, I worked with a young lady who had $254,000 worth of student loan debt for a physical therapy school. Uh, and, and undergrad was in there as well. But, um, and she unfortunately had taken some bad advice and, uh, kind of converted it over to personal loans. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and that just was decimating, I mean, really.

Yeah. What's, what's the worst number

Danny: you've heard? We had a guy in our mastermind that. Uh, undergrad and d p t school was, uh, 310,000. My both [00:04:00] private schools, by the way. So, yeah. Uh, that's, and I think that's what gets people in. I, I went to, you know, when I went to Baylor, uh, and, and you're right, I'm like, So thankful that I came out of my, uh, graduate.

I had undergrad student debt, um, but, but not a ton because I had like multiple jobs while I was in college and in Georgia, there's an interesting thing, I don't actually don't know if they have it anymore. It's called the HOPE Scholarship. And it was funded by the lottery. Um, but if you had a three oh, uh, g coming outta high school, then they paid your tuition at a state school in the state of Georgia.

So I went to a small division two school in Georgia. And, uh, If you maintain your three oh, then they pay for your tuition. Uh, so. I had a lot of incentive to maintain a 3.0, uh, GPA and, and, uh, and, and they, they paid my tuition when I was there. But all the other expenses associated with that, I did come outta school with, with, uh, with some debt.

Um, but a lot of it was paid just cuz I was working. Right. Um, but, but at Baylor, you know, that's a, that's definitely one of the advantages to the program, the [00:05:00] disadvantages, you know. You owe the Army time. It's a, I guess it's a debt, it's a four year debt afterward where they can send you anywhere in the world that they want.

And many, you know, negative things can happen, but the, the student debt that we're seeing people come out with, and I think to your point, the, the debt to income ratio is super skewed in comparison to what our profession can make and what it takes to buy into that profession, essentially with, with debt.

And it's, it, it drowns people, especially if you're talking multiple six figures in terms of their ability to even like chip weight, the.

Scott: Yeah. You know, and I think there, there's a lot to, to unpack there, right? But like, let, let's just start with the fact that, okay, you pay, let's say, and, and I was fortunate too, right?

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would've went to a, a community college for two years, then a state school for two years, and then probably a SUNY school, state school for PT school. I just didn't want to stay in New York. You know, I, the, the we winters were. The cost of living was huge. The traffic was awful.

Like [00:06:00] I just didn't want to stay in New York, so I went to a private school for undergrad at Wake Forest. Then it went to a state school for PT school, which, which saved me a little bit. Yeah. Um, I finished my transitional doctorate, uh, at St. Augustine, and then I finished my E D D there as well. Now I ended up with $140,000 worth of debt to have, you know, an undergrad degree, a master's, and two doctorates, which isn't terrible.

Really? Yeah, it's really not that bad comparison. But that being said, you. There are cheaper ways to go about doing it, and I recommend that, you know, and I hope my kids listen to me when I say, Hey, this is how you should do it. You know, I, I, all I can do is lead the horse to water, but Right. You know, when, when we talk about this debt to income ratio, the unfortunate part of it is that there's, there's people out there graduating from D P T programs and taking entry level jobs at 55, 60 5,000 a.

Right. Well if you just paid a hundred thousand for your education, 65,000 isn't gonna cut it. No. You know, and I think one of the [00:07:00] biggest things that we run into, you know, to start with this issue and this problem is mindset. You know, I think that's so huge when, when people just kind of get into the fact of like, Oh, oh, whoa is me.

How am I gonna pay this? My student loans sucked. There's so much I, I picked the wrong profession, blah, blah, blah. You know, as long as you leverage the, the degree and the letters after your name, you can make anything. You can literally, you know, make any amount of money. There's no ceiling or cap to that.

If you have the right mindset, you can leverage it into something that you enjoy and that's solving a problem for the general public. You know, I, I, I see that mindset of just PTs thinking they can just, you know, go in and do a nine to five job and clock in and clock out every day. And it's like, well, all right.

I mean, if that's what you want to do, fine, but that may not get it done when it comes to paying off your student loans.

Danny: Right. What, what, what do you see, you know, you wrote the book on this and, and understanding the different [00:08:00] angles people can take. You know, from my, from my understanding, um, the, uh, you know, debt, if it's carried for X period of time, it's government student loan is forgiven at a period of time.

Um, but it's, I forget the raise time. You can fill us in on that, like the, the, the difference between the, the federal debt and. Debt. Like what, what, what are the pros and cons of each of those?

Scott: Yeah, so, uh, don't ever change your loans from federal to private until you talk to like a CPA or somebody who truly understands the difference in student loans.

Because federal, they'll work with you, right? There's some terms and conditions and things they can kind of move around. You can call 'em and let 'em know, Hey, I need forbearance, or I need a, you know, delay, or I'm going through Covid was a big one. They'll work with you a little bit. Private loans, once you've gone that route, you just owe that money.

It's never gonna go away till you've paid it off. So, you know, talk to a certified financial advisors. Talk to a, a, you know, a a, an accountant or somebody who knows, you know, the differences in, in student and fe, [00:09:00] you know, the federal versus private loans. You know, for me, There's several different loan repayment plans that are, are federal.

And I had originally been on the income driven repayment plan, which kind of dropped my loans from 1700 a month down to 700. And that was pretty good start. Um, but recently in talking to, you know, another certified financial planner, uh, I was able to go on the repay plan, which. You know is the revised pay as you earn plan, and that dropped it from 700 a month down to about 135 a month.

But that also stretches it out over 20 years. And at the end of the 20 years, it's forgiven. Whatever you owe is still forgiven. But the way that they, they count that they tax that, and the way they tax it is, it's almost like you made that much money that year. So if I'm making 120,000 that year, yeah. And a hundred thousand is forgiven.

I actually make 220,000 that year, and that's what they tax me on. Right. So the 20 years, you [00:10:00] have to have a plan in place in order to be saving up or investing in some way, shape or form, to then pay that one year of a hundred thousand extra in salary tax. Yeah. Now the cool thing there is. Instead of paying 700 a month, if I'm only paying 135, I can take that difference and invest it and do things with it, and hopefully make enough, you know, money on the side to kind of eventually just pay that one year of tax, uh, increase for, you know, when, when the

Danny: loans are forgiven.

Yeah, and I mean, honestly, it's a lot, right? Like, because depending on your state, uh, with your, your state tax, your federal tax, you know, and if, depending on your spouse, you know, as a family, depending on how you're filing, you know, you're looking at, it could be 40%, uh, of, of what. You didn't pay that you still have to pay.

So it sound, it's, it's better than a hundred percent. I guess in some ways the thing that is more appealing to me is the cash flow side. Um, we are huge fans of, uh, effectively improving cash flow to be able to, [00:11:00] you know, to, to be able to generate, um, opportunities to reinvest in, whether it's your own business or things you know, that are gonna give you cash flow in return.

And, you know, that's one thing that I think for a lot of people, They don't look at the cash flow side of, um, their monthly, you know, monthly income, uh, which you can decrease, obviously you can decrease your expenses or you can increase your take home. Um, but one of the sneaky ways to do that is to be more efficient with your loan structures.

And, uh, you know, one thing that we did so. C uh, even with some of these private loans where people were getting like astronomically lower interest rates, um, on, uh, on, on what they were refinancing versus federal, uh, federal loans. And so if we look at the, the net from that, potentially, you know, if with the tax savings of not having to pay that, but paying the full amount, they're, they're fairly close.

Uh, so you're right, it's, it's difficult. It's cuz not everybody's situation is gonna be the same, but regardless. Cash flow is king man. And you know, the more people can start to understand that. Um, because I think the other [00:12:00] thing is this, right? If you say 20 in 20 years, if, if you're, if you cut your payment down from 1700 to 150 or, or, or whatever, right?

So you're, you're a 14, $1,500 difference. Like massive, massive difference. But not only that, you've got that at a fixed. Interest rate and 20 years from now, that a hundred thousand dollars you may still owe on it, is gonna be worth much less than it is worth today because, you know, debt is eroded by time because of inflation.

So I'll, I'll take that all day. If I can push off paying somebody back for 20 years and it's a fixed amount and a fixed interest rate, as long as it's not continuing to go up, that's outpacing inflation, then I, I, I'm gonna win that. Right. And uh, and they used to use time to your.

Scott: Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there.

I mean, everybody's situation's gonna be different, you know? Uh, so you have to talk to somebody about getting what the right blueprint is for you, right. Right. And what the right roadmap is for you. But once you figure it out, I mean, there's a lot of, you know, positives to, to delaying those [00:13:00] payments. And, and like I said, uh, you know, for me, It's been a matter of, you know, my side gigs and my side hustles, uh, you know, bumping up the amount of money that I have coming in because, you know, I agree.

You can either, you know, cut your costs and, and, you know, try to be frugal on that side, or you can make more money right. To me, it's way easier to make more money than it is to cut costs. And even if I cut costs, you can do both, you know? But even if you cut costs, there's only so many Starbucks coffees you can cut outta your, your daily budget, right?

And that's not gonna make as big of an impact as signing a $3,000 a month client doing, you know, whatever side gig or side hustle you want to do. You know? And for me, my, my. Side hustles and side gigs will always be that, you know, because my wife's a type one diabetic, and so we need not only medical benefits, but good medical benefits.

Yeah. So my nine to five is now teaching full-time. Right. For, for University of St. Augustine. Uh, and they offer great medical benefits. So I have that to cover my medical benefits and, and my wife. And then [00:14:00] I just, you know, work on my side hustles and my side gigs and my free time. Um, you know, and. I always recommend people start as a side gig or a side hustle and try to build it up, you know, uh, hopefully they can turn it into a full-time gig, right?

Much like you've done, like if, if you know they can turn businesses into full-time things, then they don't need that. Nine to five, and I strongly recommend that, you know, uh, but for me it'll always be a side gig inside hustle, and I'm okay with that. That's the, the new, you know, rules and boundaries that I've had to, to play with, and I'm fine with that.

I've learned to work around it and keep it as a side gig, side hustle, and just know my time allocations and what I can put to each, each business and, and just kind of go from there. You know, but I, I sh I, I think it's easier to make more money than it is to cut back and cut corners and, and, and try to, you know, tighten your budget up,

Danny: dude.

I totally agree. And also, like, you know, you never know when you're gonna die. So if you're just like, you know, and, and look, I, when I was, when Ashley and I were paying off debt, [00:15:00] like we went deep down the Dave Ramsey, you know, rabbit hole, I'm talking cash envelope system like. I hope I will. I'll tell you this much.

I'll never do that again in my life because it caused so much stress in our relationship. I remember getting in a fight with her over like a $10 difference on a grocery budget because we didn't have the cash for it. And looking back on, it's so stupid. Uh, but, but it forces fiscal. Extreme discipline, um, you know, in, in a way that I think is, is beneficial, but can, can g can give you a really, um, negative outlook on money is this very scarce thing that you have to be like, you know, very, very, um, and obviously you wanna be careful with money, but like, it's, it's also, it's very easy to make it, you know, if once you understand like the principles of providing value to other people and, and what you're worth and, and selling yourself.

So, you know, I, I think that making more money is a better path, I think for a lot of people. They, they feel like they were kind of lied to. You know, like I, I've had clinicians tell me, like, I didn't go to school to get a doctorate so I could have two jobs, you know? Um, [00:16:00] and, and, and I feel, I feel that for, for them.

Like, I get it, but I think it's not just us, right? Like my, my, uh, my brother-in-law's wife is type one diabetic. She's a teacher. But she has a side hustle with, I don't know, it's still some sort of skincare side hustle. Right. But she actually makes probably twice as much doing that as she does as a teacher.

But she stays teaching because of health benefits, because she's a type one diabetic as well. Um, but she is the breadwinner in the family. Because of the side hustle plus her full-time job. Um, and, you know, she's very efficient with it. She does a great job with it. So I think it's something that can be done without having to go full-time.

Um, and I think for a vast majority of people, an extra one to, you know, $5,000 in particular, but even at the extra thousand dollars a month for people can make a big, big difference. So I, I'm interested with you, like, what are you seeing with these, uh, side hustles, things that are generating multiple revenue streams?

Like what, what are you seeing that people are having the most success with? Um, outside of, you know, You know, working as a PRN [00:17:00] provider on the weekend or home health or something like that. Yeah.

Scott: I mean, I always recommend you if you have to, you could start there, but you're still trading time for money in that case, you know?

And so again, you're gonna have a limited ceiling on how much you can actually make working for somebody else. Right? So at the very least, the first. Step is you've gotta start your own business. You know, you've gotta have an L L C or, you know, and it's different for every state, what they require, what they allow.

Like Texas for instance, uh, recommends a P L L C for those of us who have a professional license, right? Um, doctors, dentists, lawyers, et cetera. And so I started my business as a P L L C and I did a mobile PT gig for a little while. Uh, and that was great. You know, I loved it. Um, but at the same time I was, I was charging 200 bucks a visit, you know, and for an hour.

That's pretty decent for PT standards, you know, especially in Waco, a little small town there in the middle of Texas. But you know, I could do that, or I could do a consulting [00:18:00] gig that was injury prevention and wellness and educate companies like a moving company on how to properly lift and team lifting and body mechanics and ergonomics, you know, to try to lower their, uh, workman's comp costs for the year.

Right. And I can charge 1500 bucks an hour for that, you know, and it's a two hour gig, so. You know, is 200 bucks an hour the right move? Or, or should I value my time a little bit more and do the consulting gig at 1500 an hour? You know, so then you gotta start kind of diving into priorities of which, which business and which maneuver is gonna make you the most money.

Right? And, and, and which makes the most sense for you? It may not be a money thing, it may be that it just brings you more joy to treat patients than it does to do, you know? Consulting and education. And if that's the case, then, you know, a, a small PT gig is, is probably your best bet. But you know, again, if, if, if it's about increasing your profits, you, you gotta choose the one that's going to, you know, make the most sense for your business.

Right. And I think when it comes to multiple revenue streams, and I [00:19:00] know you've probably seen this as well, the biggest thing is you've gotta avoid the shiny object syndrome. You know, you can't just say, oh, that looks cool. I can do that. Oh, he's doing that. I could do that. Or, oh, ooh, let's add this. Oh, let's do that.

You know, you can do all of those things, that's completely fine, but you've gotta do them in an organized, structured manner so that you've got one stream of revenue flowing, and it's okay in doing well. Then you can move on to the next one. You know, for me, having that mobile PT business was nice cuz I could kind of use it as like a Petri dish and try to like test things out on it and figure what worked and what didn't.

You know? And so I was able to learn a lot of, you know, marketing and online courses and you know, things that would help the business for. Then I could turn that into another business where I was consulting or, or educating and teaching people how to do the things that I was doing to help make my mobile business more profitable and, and you know, how to get that up and running.

And so from there it just kind of became a [00:20:00] matter of like, okay, as long as I use my knowledge and skills from all of my undergrad degrees and my graduate degrees, and I leveraged. Into something that I could turn into a business that could also help people and solve a problem. You know, I was gonna be fine.

It didn't matter, you know how much debt I had because I knew like using my E D D right to then. Focus on curriculum development and online course development. Uh, that, you know, kind of helped me with pt educator.com and starting my, you know, my online courses and stuff like that. And then helping people build their own online courses as well.

Because I knew the curriculum and the development and how to, how to build it out, you know, I just didn't know the topic expert, you know, I wasn't the, the topic expert, so I had to have them fill in the blanks for me, but I could outline what should be in that course and how it should look, you know, and again, it's just taking skills that I already had.

And putting 'em into a business form. Yeah.

Danny: You know? Yeah. If you like, I was gonna say, you probably made a lot of connections [00:21:00] too with that mobile business that led to other things. I, I think that's one of the biggest benefits of these types of in-person businesses is you're meeting and building relationships with people that then, They connect you with other people and it's this, you just never really know where it goes.

We just know the more people you know, the more opportunities come your way. Yeah, big

Scott: time. I'm not really a huge fan of luck. I don't think you know that People get lucky. I think you work hard for a long time and eventually opportunities fall in your lap and you're ready to act on those opportunities through working hard and.

Positioning yourself in the point where you can have those opportunities even happen to you. You know, I got to teach for Baylor's, uh, new two-year program for a year adjunct, and that was a hundred percent just because of my networking and having the right people on my podcast and, you know, talking to them about, uh, opportunities.

And I went to their open house, I rubbed elbows with all the people in the program and chatted with them and said, Hey, if you ever need anyone, I'm here locally in Waco. Just, you know, let me [00:22:00] know. I just finished my ed d or I'm about to finish my ed d at the. And uh, sure enough, somebody dropped out last minute.

They needed an adjunct for a semester, and so I stepped in and that was my first teaching gig. And was it luck? Yeah, I mean, a little bit. That person had to drop out for me to get that position, but they also would never have known about me if I didn't have them on the podcast, if I didn't network through their open house, if I didn't keep in touch with all those people and let them know that, hey, I'm available.

You know? Yeah. And, and most of my mobile business was working with CEOs and C-suite level execs and high, high level business people. Um, because they needed the time, you know, they needed people to come to them to help save them time instead of going to the, the gym or the office or whatever, they needed you to come to them.

So they loved the idea of a mobile pt. And because I was working with CEOs and C-suite level execs, I could, you know, Just listen to them and talk to them about their jobs and their DA daily activities and you know, what it's like running a business and, you know, the stresses they were under and the wins and the losses.

So that was always fun [00:23:00] to just kind of listen, like, kind of be that fly on the wall while we're going through treatment and kinda listening to their tactics and stuff. So that, that was fun for me as well. Yeah. Um, but like you said, networking man, it was huge.

Danny: It's big, you know, I, I, I'm interested. It, it sounds, You're, you're doing a number of different things, um, as far as like, you know, side hustles go and I, I feel like there's, there's benefits and there's, there's definitely negatives associated with that, right?

Like, you could, you could make the case that, um, if you just solely focused on, and MO mobile is very hard to scale. I'll say MO mobile is, unless you are in a dense city. It is very, very difficult because of the time constraints of driving to other people. Um, so you know, it, if, if you wanted to replace your income, you can definitely do that.

Um, the only ones that we've worked with, that we've seen scale pass himself are like in downtown Chicago, you know, or Manhattan or something like that. Um, but. Let's just say you focused on one, right? And, and you just did that and you just focused on that, and you're able to scale it [00:24:00] past yourself, bring other people in, essentially generate passive revenue through assets and humans.

Um, you know, where do you see, like, how do you draw the line between, okay, I think I have, uh, gotten this to a place where now I'm ready to move on to the next thing. But, but also like, how do. If you hadn't stuck with that thing and really doubled down on focusing on one instead of trying to do courses and online or in-person stuff at businesses, cash-based practice stuff, um, you know, it seems like you could spread your efforts out to a point where you're not getting as much traction in one as well.

How so? How do you know when to, to make that change?

Scott: Yeah, I, I think, you know, realistically there, there. The school of thought that yeah, you just gotta go all in on the one thing and just keep, you know, building and building and building it and making it better and making it better. I'm kind of more of a polymath where like, I, I get bored if I'm just doing one thing, you know, and it's not for everybody, right?

Like, I, I feel fine juggling eight to 10 things at once because I know I can do them, you know, for me at [00:25:00] 110%, whereas somebody else might only do 'em at 80. So if I'm doing four or five things, Two or three projects end up dropping off. You know, I'm okay with that because I know the four or five things I'm working on, I'm, I'm giving my best and I'm giving my whole effort to, you know, but the other, the other aspect of that is, okay.

You get to a point where one of the streams of revenue is making money, it's doing well, right? Well, can you step away from that, you know, and, and let it run on its own for a w a while, you know, a couple days can you take a vacation and not have to worry about, you know, being there and being the guy or, you know, and that's why I think the transition into, to some of the online businesses and the online courses and stuff like that is, is a pretty good maneuver because you know, people.

Always want that, that like passive income. And that to me doesn't really exist. Right. Because even the online courses, they take a ton of work to set up on the front end. You know, people don't realize how much work it is. And then once you get it up and running, there's still a lot of like marketing and, and you know, fine tuning and tweaking some of the copy and stuff like that that [00:26:00] needs to be done, you know?

So, so, you know, I'd love to hear your take on it, but I think online businesses are, are great. Pretty difficult to, to make successful, you know? And yeah, once they are successful, then you've got a good shot to again step away from it and just let it run organically as much as

Danny: possible. Yeah. I, I. I, um, a hundred percent agree with.

I think online business is significantly harder than in-person, uh, brick and mortar stuff. Like, um, it's so much easier to gain traction with, like, like you said, whether it's, whether it's, you know, cash services, consulting. I think the challenge with that is getting your foot in the door with businesses.

Um, and, and some of that comes from your, like the, the benefit of a. Practices, you get to develop relationships with people. Some of them are high level people at businesses or own businesses, and now all of a sudden they see value in you, and then you're able to provide value at their company level.

Right? And, and that's usually how we see this sort of hierarchy of, of making that transition up to more of like a corporate wellness, uh, program, uh, versus like [00:27:00] one-on-one care or whatever it is that you're doing. But on the online side, you know, I, I. I was, um, kind of fascinated with this, mainly because the guy that I got outta the Army to teach for at the time, this company's called Mobility Wad.

Now it's the ready state and, and um, and I saw just like the reach that he had, uh, to be able to impact so many other people. And we were teaching courses, which are very time intensive. You know, I was traveling two or three times a month to teach for him, and then they, they, they turned it into a platform where there was a, like a daily, uh, program that people were doing.

And it was, you know, it was eight. Eight or 10 bucks a month. Right. Something like that. Um, but I mean, I, I, I was so integral in their business that I was pretty aware of everything that was going on and what our revenue was from courses and from consulting and from military contracts, um, and, and from, uh, you know, membership on the, on their platform.

And I was always shocked at how mu how much money that they were making off of their digital platform. But, uh, you [00:28:00] know, to your point, It, it, does it generate revenue when you're not there? Yes. But if you are creating a content subject matter expert platform that is based off of your knowledge base, you are on the hook to constantly give them knowledge.

And that's one thing I can tell you is can be very exhausting, um, as well. So yes, you may not be trading your time for money directly, but you're still on the hook for some of that. The, the smartest people that I've met that have built online platform, They build them not around themself, but around a service of some sort.

Um, that is not directly tied to them, but that's actually even harder to do because typically a personal brand is gonna be able to be leveraged into something else. You know, and or now we go down the rabbit hole of like software companies and all that, but the cost to, to co the cost to start those upfront is massive.

If we're talking multiple six figures, just some development costs. Um, so most people, I think what they do is they, they say, all right, well I have this unique knowledge. I'm gonna build a course. I. [00:29:00] It online and everybody's gonna buy it. And this is exactly what I thought too. Um, six years ago, whenever I built my first, uh, online course, I built a foot and ankle anatomy and mechanics course for CrossFit.

I got it certified through CrossFit, and all of two people bought it. In the last six years too. And I spent a lot of time, energy, and money on it thinking this is gonna be a game changer for coaches. And I was gonna do different regions and it was a complete bust, right? So it, you know, ego deflated. I tail to my legs, head back to my, my office and um, and I just kind of left it alone for a while.

And then I started to try to get back into it. And I started, uh, developing a program that I was using for people that were remote with me, primarily for tactical. That hurt their back. They were trying to get back to being able to like carry load, uh, r r March again. And um, so we had to load them with barbell.

So we called it back to the barbell. It was a six week program and, um, I actually had a lot more traction with that. And what happened was, [00:30:00] um, I started being able to actually like, understand how to market that, which took a lot of time, effort, and money. Like I've been in multiple digital business mastermind groups to the, to the tune of.

Probably 50 grand. Just with those, those education groups that I've been in. And that program that I had, I actually made, you know, uh, probably one 10th of the cost of the education that I put in on it. But I saw that, oh, this was possible. But because I saw that was possible, I was actually able to license that in a couple other programs to a bigger platform that now they sell it and I get, I get a licensing fee based off of any of the sales that are, that are from that.

So it's interesting the evolution you have. It's super freaking hard to do. And in comparison, the amount of amount of revenue I've generated off of these digital products for the time that it came in, uh, to it is, uh, minor, tiny in comparison to our, our brick and mortar business. The difference being. In order to scale past yourself there and create passive revenue, you have to [00:31:00] create a system and a structure that other people can be, uh, successful in and hire and retain the right people.

And even then, it's not a hundred percent passive because people are messy and they have, they have their own lives and their own expectations for things. And if you're complet. Not there. Then they started to, you know, kind of get some resentment and, uh, and they, and they, they move on. So the idea of passive income, it's funny, man, like I actually know people that have legitimate, you know, massive amounts of passive income, but they came off the back of massive amounts of active work in business that in most cases they either sold and then put into assets at cash flow, typically real estate and or.

Businesses. I have a buddy that just buys laundromats, dude, like he buys laundromats, he gets operators to, you know, get all the coins for him to deposit it in the bank. And he lives in an RV and he, you know, he just mountain bikes every day, but, For the first 20 years of his life, he had a business that he sold.

He had all this capital that then he started redeploying into other businesses were hands [00:32:00] off and there's just so few examples of true passive income that I think it's a fallacy for our profession to say like, oh, I create this online course and now I'm financially free. It's like, dude, There's a lot of work associated with that, and the return on your time is gonna be probably less than a, than the minimum wages.

Um, you know, you just have something that maybe somebody buys while you're asleep and you can tell your friends that you did that. Uh, but it's, it's definitely very hard to get it to a point where it's supporting, um, you know, your family because that amount of digital, passive, true passive revenue, it's a, that's a lot.

It takes a lot of work or a massive platform that you're gonna have to develop over a long period. Yeah, for

Scott: sure. I think, uh, you know, again, a lot to unpack there, but like, you know, there's some branding involved with that. I think, you know, you've gotta have that brand as opposed to maybe, like you said, the personal name attached to it.

Uh, you know, you've gotta have a platform that people know, like, and trust, you know, so that they can buy in eventually. A lot of nurturing over a long period of time. Cuz people aren't always ready to buy right off the bat. Right. You've got [00:33:00] different, different, uh, levels of. Customer, whether it be cold traffic, medium, you know, warm traffic or or hot traffic, right.

Ready to buy right away. And those just don't happen. So it takes time. It takes a lot of time. Right. And I think, you know, like you said, real estate's a another great, uh, stream of income, you know, and that can possibly become passive eventually the more rental properties own. Um, you know, I think that's where maybe true generational wealth gets built over time.

Right. Accumulating real estate and houses. Right. Um, you know, I, there's so many different things that we can do and still keep one foot in the boat even of healthcare or physical therapy. Right. You, you don't have to, but I mean, again, we're going back to that mindset stuff again. Like there's so many different streams of revenue out there.

Um, that can be done as a physical therapist and, and a lot of it's just giving yourself the permission to do those things right. I much like you, my first course was a fantasy football injury course, you know, where I kind of went over all the injuries that could happen during the season and what [00:34:00] the return to play looked like.

So you could kind of get ready and think about your roster. And I sold. Four courses my first year, uh, I had no idea what I was doing, you know, I just figured like, Hey, I love fantasy football. Everybody wants to know about the injuries. Here's the course. Right? Uh, it took me two more years of finally hooking up with the right, uh, social media influencers, to be honest with you.

Uh, fantasy football counselors. He's got, uh, you know, millions of downloads on, on his podcast and, uh, you know, over a hundred thousand followers on, on Instagram and blah, blah, blah. So I basically, Did injury analysis for him for free on his show in return. He pitched the course, and then I finally started selling a couple of courses, which was nice.

But again, that was a lot of work. It was networking, it was failing over and over again before I got back up and figured it out, you know? Um, so it just, you know, There's so many things that can, that can be done out there, uh, in the world of physical therapy still, uh, that that can, you know, be a, a passive income [00:35:00] or, or a, a stream of revenue, if you will, or a side hustle or a side gig.

Um, you know, and I think one of the things that, you know, you and I both kind of have in common is, is a masterclass, right? Or a mastermind event, right? And we kind of used the book like your book as leverage, right? You started with the book and people got to know you through the book. And that's one way of.

Um, and then from there, as they get to know you more and they, they see the business side of things, then they, you know, become more interested and wanna learn how they can work with you more and work with you further. Um, so talk, talk a little bit about your mastermind and, and how that works and, and what, what you guys offer, uh, at

Danny: different levels.

Yeah. So, I mean, originally if it happened out of, it wasn't intentional, it was, um, I started to get, um, people reaching out to me that wanted me to help them with their businesses, and I was doing that, um, for, for, for probably a solid year. I was just, I mean, people would send me the most elaborate questions and emails [00:36:00] and I would spend.

Sometimes literally hours, uh, getting them the information they needed back. And what happened was it really started to irritate my wife. Um, she was like pissed because I'm sitting on the couch with her at night, just working until I'm about to fall asleep, helping these people in our profession that are reaching out to me.

Uh, about like how we're, you know, we're running our business and how we're able to scale a cash-based practice past ourself, you know, which we did to, you know, multiple providers within, within two years. Um, which, which now is not that big of a feat nowadays, but seven years ago it was pretty rare. And so I, I asked my mentor, I asked, uh, the guy that I gather the army to teach for, I was like, Hey man, I don't know what to do.

Like, I wanna help these folks, but like, it's taking a lot of time. And he goes, you gotta put a number on your time, dude. The right people will say yes, the wrong people will go away. And so that's what I did. And eventually what happened was, um, I decided that I kind of wanted to try to get some people together at our facility so they could [00:37:00] come and see it.

And, um, I decided I would take six of these people that I'd kind of done some, some loose. You know, consulting work with and see if they wanted to work with me in a structured manner for a year. Um, I, I worked with them every month, uh, individually, uh, these six people for, for a year. And then at the end of that year, we got together at our, uh, space in, in Atlanta.

And, um, we went over, I, I can't actually remember what we went over. It's just some business development stuff for, um, for a day and. It was awesome. It was great. Like we had the best time. Uh, we, uh, we all could sit at a table together and have dinner. Um, everybody was at different stages in their business and, and, uh, you know, I, I remember after that I was like, this is like one of the more fun days I've ever had in my life.

I told my wife that she was like, you're, you're a nerd, obviously. And, uh, but I, I was like, This is great. Maybe some more people that want to do this. And, um, the vast majority of people that were there stuck around to for the second iteration of it. And, you know, the second iteration was, [00:38:00] uh, like six more people.

So there's like 12, right? So we did it again, and we got in, we got together in person and it was, it was awesome. And then we realized there was like some opportunity here because we started to have more and more people that were interested in working with us. And a lot of the people in our group were sending people our way that were friends of theirs.

So, you know, fast forward. You know, we had six people in 2000. God, what year was that? Uh, 2000, um, 18 was, was, we actually started in 17, uh, 2018 was when we actually got together in person. It was in the spring. Um, so six people spring of 2018 to now, we work with what's actively over 150 businesses, kind of all across the country, some internationally as well.

And, uh, it was because I, I can tell you what happened with me was I realized I had an opportunity and I realized I didn't. I wasn't good at everything. Um, and, and I feel our, this is like a big goal for me is I want to really make a difference in the profession via the [00:39:00] vehicle of the successful, in my opinion, performance practices, which is what we run, where we teach people how to be healthy long-term as part of our business model, as part of what all our clinicians do.

But the compounding effect of what these people can do now, it's 150 of them. Many of them have hired other clinicians. We get an opportunity, opportunity to. You know, clinicians from this high volume in-network practice model that burns them out. We let them use their skillset the way that they deserve, and then we get to grow the impact of the people that we serve and the net effect on the health of our country, I think through the vehicle of these folks and the people they can hire, can be pretty, pretty damn impressive and, and and impactful.

So for me to help achieve that, I needed help. So that's where I actually brought in Eve Gigi as a business partner, and Jared Moon as a, as a business partner, gave up equity in, in the company, uh, which everybody always tells you not to do, but to get two incredibly smart people that, in their own right were successful entrepreneurs, was the best move I ever made.

Um, and, uh, and, and they're, they're just incredible, incredible, uh, assets in the business. They're really good friends of mine. [00:40:00] I just think that, um, If you can find high achievers that can help you and offset your weaknesses with their strengths, it's, it's a, it, it's like rocket fuel and it is hard to find, cuz most people wanna partner with their buddy that's just like them.

Um, versus somebody that can help, you know, really, uh, strengthen your weaknesses. And, um, and so anyway, that's, that's what happened. And, and, uh, across the board, I think that we just do a really good job of getting results for people. It's the reason why we've had. You know, a high retention rate, about 80% of the people we work with never leave.

So it just kind of snowballs and, and continues to grow. Um, so we work with those people a year at a time. They work with us for a year and they can decide if they wanna stick around. Um, you know, after that, and because of the size of our group now, we've been able to really bring in a lot of influential entrepreneurs outside our community.

They get a chance to come in and present and help expose them to other things. And wealth, wealth generation, you know, sales, marketing people, processes, how to hire, how. How to structure exits, how to, you know, put yourself in a position where you're essentially in a passive role to sell your business to, you know, a, uh, to your, to your employees, to [00:41:00] sell your business to another business.

Um, you know, to ha to have an exit in a way where there's true value to your business. There's so many things that we can do with these now. Um, so, so that's what we do within that community. And then about, uh, a year and a half ago, we realized there was a real need for people. Not full-time in their business.

Um, and that's where we started our clinical Rainmaker program, which is a three month program. Um, and uh, it's just something that I built what I wish I would've had when I started my business. So, you know, we do, we do biweekly calls. We have a sports psychologist involved that does calls with people cause they're dealing with so many.

Negative situations where they're getting turned down. Um, you know, we have one-on-one coaching, we have like access and the communication level is insane. Like, cuz there's, there's nothing like it, uh, if, if you're trying to grow a business like that. And, um, we've seen great, great success with that too.

And I think the, the thing, you know, f Scott, that people, I, I think people want. To make, they wanna make money, but they don't want to be held accountable if they do not, uh, fulfill on their, the expectations people have of them. And the [00:42:00] interesting thing, when you work with people and face-to-face in-person, zoom, whatever, you cannot hide from those individuals.

Very high, easy to hide behind a paywall and a bunch of other people. But when, when you are saying, I'm gonna help you achieve this, I expect you're gonna put. But expect that I'm gonna give you what, what I say I'm gonna do as well. Um, that I think scares a lot of people off because they, they don't necessarily wanna take ownership in, um, you know, actually fulfilling on what they say they're gonna do, cuz it's very hard to do.

Um, but if you can do it right, you can change somebody's life. And that's what we're what, you know, we've seen and, and what we've enjoyed being able to be a part of, even though it's very active on our side and we could make it much more passive. We're super involved because, man, we love the transformation.

I love seeing somebody go from. Literally thinking about leaving the profession to all of a sudden, uh, realizing there's so much more they can do with their degree if they just tweak the way they're using it and, and use their brain in a slightly different way and learn a different skill. And all of a sudden they're like, the, their relationships are better.

They're happy again. Like, you know, they're, they're their, [00:43:00] their kids, right? Relationships are better because they're just more present, uh, and they're happy. And it's, it's frustrating to see people in our profess. That are they, they second guess whether they made the right decision. You know, like we are, we're really helpful.

We actually help people, you know, we we're incredibly good at what we do, um, but we're undervalued by insurance companies and, you know, and that is something that's a way bigger problem than I'm gonna be able to solve. Um, so we can just say, all right, we're gonna go our way. We wanna help people directly.

Um, and then that's what we stick to. So it's, it's been really amazing to be able to work with people in that capacity, um, you know, and be within the profession to teach the business side of it. You know, accelerate somebody's ability to really, uh, increase their income, increase their impact, um, and ultimately generate time and financial freedom.

Yeah, I

Scott: think, uh, you know, I had a lot of the same issues that you had where I was kind of starting to run out of time and then I was answering the same questions over and over and over again and, you know, so I figured, all right, if I really want to help people, if I really wanna make an impact, I have to just put it all [00:44:00] in one area that I just, everything I know, here it is.

You know, and that's where, you know, the book kind of started. And then from the book, you know, I. Had this, this, you know, well, hey, how can I work with you further? Like, Hey, can you like guide me through this? Can you walk me through this, like, kind of a handholding process, right? So that's where the masterclass kind of evolved from.

Um, and then, like you said, I, I. Didn't want to do it all on my own. I wasn't the best at the eight to 10 things I was, I was doing over and over and over again. But I knew people who were pretty good at it. And you know, some people even who went through the masterclass and got better than me at a lot of the side hustles and side gigs I was teaching.

So I had them now come in to teach those, those sections, you know, so that, you know, there is, you know, a way that you can kind of just take the information and do it. Or if you want the handholding, you know, you can go that route as well. Yeah. And uh, you know, same thing, it was like, this is how I feel like I can help people, you know, make a, make a big impact is, is by just showing them ways to, to make a little bit more money than [00:45:00] they currently are, uh, so that they can, you know, hopefully pay down their debt and their student loans.

Right. You know, and, and, and I think that you. I, I can go to sleep every night, you know, and put my head on the pillow, feeling pretty good about, you know, working my nine to five, like educating, doing things I love, and then helping people, you know, on the back end as well. And, you know, just helping people at the very least see that there are these other options out there.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, They gotta put in the work. You're right, they have to put in the work. You can't do the work for them, you know, but you can definitely show them the, the tools they need and the steps they need to take, the organizational, uh, stuff, the processes, uh, and then once they, they've got that information, it's on them to kind of, you know, put it into full gear.

You know, I always tell people like, yeah, even the best, uh, you know, hitters in the world or quarterbacks or whoever, they all have coaches, right? They all learn and. You know, we pay coaches to, to coach, right? But at the end of the day, they don't go up to the batter's box and hit, you know, they don't [00:46:00] go out there and call the play and, and execute it.

You gotta be able to implement as well. So, right,

Danny: right. We, we love to say you can't outsource your pushups, uh, you know, as a, and you can have all the information you need. And so, funny thing is, sometimes the people that absorb the most amount of information never do anything. You know, because they just are like paralysis by analysis and they, they, um, they just wait and they learn and they're.

They're like, it's gotta be the perfect time and I gotta have the right amount of information. And like, and it just never really happens. And for a lot of those folks, if they ever do decide to do something, they kind of look back and they're like, damn. Like, I wish I would've, uh, would've done that. It's like, uh, I have a lot of friends that are real estate investors or developers and, and, and it's what, what they always say is like, what's the best time to buy real estate?

Yesterday was the best time to buy your real estate. Right? It's like, it's always you. Uh, doing it right. Just, just get it done and, and looking back and wishing that, uh, you know, you had done it earlier, something that's pretty common. So, um, well, well, cool man. Well just look to, to be respectful of your time.

This was an awesome conversation. Uh, I, I wanna be able to highlight, you know, kind of, uh, where people can find out [00:47:00] more about, uh, what you got going on and in particular, some of these, um, you know, debt, uh, you know, uh, Courses that you have as well as masterclass and things like that. So like where, where's uh, where's the point of, uh, uh, finding everything that you got?

Yeah, I think, uh, the Professors

Scott: of Profit Facebook group is probably the easiest place to find a lot of this stuff. I talk a lot about, uh, you know, the different streams of revenue in there. Uh, and then online, all the social media handles are at PT educator. Um, and then the book is pt, educator Student Debt Eliminator.

It can be found on Amazon.

Danny: Cool. Um, and if you guys are interested in learning more about what we do, just had the physical therapy biz with a z.com and you can see everything that we got going on there. Um, if we can help out in any way, you probably can learn more about that at that website. So, um, f Scott, man, thanks so much for your time this morning.

It's fun having an informal conversation. These are, these are good. I should do more of these just like back and forth. You're way less scripted. I actually really enjoy the conversation. Yeah,

Scott: for sure. I appreciate your time, Denny, and you know, keep, [00:48:00] keep pushing man. I love, love seeing what you're,

Danny: Thanks so much.

You too.

Hey, real quick before you go, I just wanna say thank you so much for listening to this podcast, and I would love it if you got involved in the conversation. So this is a one way channel. I'd love to hear back from you. I'd love to get you into the group that we have formed on Facebook. Our PT Entrepreneurs Facebook group has about 4,000 clinicians in there.

That are literally changing the face of our profession. I'd love for you to join the conversation, get connect with other clinicians all over the country. I do live trainings in there with Eve Gigi every single week. And we share resources that we don't share anywhere else outside that group.

So if you're serious about being a PT entrepreneur, a clinical rainmaker, head to that group. Get signed up. Go to facebook.com/groups/ptentrepreneur, or go to Facebook and just search for PT Entrepreneur. And we're gonna be the only group that pops up under that.